Heat-Timer Genesis

operator80

Haven't seen much on here but I'm looking for opinions and real world experience. I am considering this system for a single pipe steam system in a 7000sqft 7 family apartment building in Brooklyn. Currently running a simple on off thermostat and its a nightmare, need more precise control, sensors etc. Some tenants complain that their apartments are hotter than the surface of the sun while others call the city complaining it's too cold. Can't win, but I will certainly try.

Jamie Hall

May we have a bit more detail? Start off with — is this a one pipe steam system (one inlet to each radiator, a vent on each radiator) or a two pipe system?

The methods of balancing the two are different, but it is very likely that you can get much better balance without much additional hardware or controls — depending somewhat on what you have.

Down in the basement. Perhaps a few pictures of the boiler might be useful. More important, are there vents on the steam mains? If so what kind? Pictures again may help.

In any event, the first thing to do is to get the system into better balance. This is not that hard to do, but will take patience — and access to the apartments.

I might note that the main property I take care of is also about 7,000 square feet, although it isn't apartments, but it is controlled by one mechanical thermostat — and is in very good balance (most days no room is more than 2 or 3 degrees warmer than any other).

operator80

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1890663#Comment_1890663

Yes It is a peerless 64-07 single pipe, gorton #2 on all steam mains, all basement mains are insulated, vaporstat with a cutout at about 16oz

Jamie Hall

Great! God beginning here and thank you!

If a bit more of a pain. First thing to do is get the apartments more or less in balance, and to do that you are going to need to play with vents on their radiators. Slow the too warm ones down first.

Where is the thermostat located?

exqheat

I like the Maid o mist vents with variable escape holes that can be changed to adjust.

You may wish to consider the Honeywell 8000 thermostats with redlink. You can use RF sensors which will avoid complicated rerouting of tt wires.

SteamingatMohawk

Because of a similar imbalance situation, I installed a GoveeLife Smart Thermo-Hygrometers in each of my 4 apartment living rooms, plus the basement. You can buy additional sensors. The set shown is very affordable.

I have it set up so I can monitor all the sensors on my phone. I haven't bothered to set it up on a computer, but I am sure it is possible. These sensors are a newer style with larger batteries for longer life between changes. Don't get the older smaller ones.

Big Ed_4

operator80

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1890990#Comment_1890990

Actually exactly what I did this past weekend, got the pro vision 8000 with an RF sensor and placed it in the coldest apartment, furthest from boiler. This may not be as perfect as the Heat-Timer but it is already 100x better than my simple on/off therm in the basement. Also about $7000 cheaper too!

exqheat

You can get internet connection for the honeywell 8000 red link with red link attachment to your tv router. I use them on my buildings to test and adjust temperatures. I find one sensor properly placed on top floors of steam buildings, just fine. As they say in the morter platoon, "fire and aadjust." Once it's set your can check it on your phone or computer. I catch boiler failures before the complaintys start. Service is on site within one hour.

SteamingatMohawk

I installed the Honeywell wireless thermostat and added the gateway to the router so I can monitor and control the heat from my phone. Before I converted, the lone thermostat was in the living room of the upstairs front apartment, meaning I had to through 4 doors to get to it from the basement and then back down to the boiler in the basement. It cost a couple of hundred, but is worth it. That plus the sensors I mentioned allows me to know how each apartment is being heated and adjust accordingly.

EdTheHeaterMan

@SteamingatMohawk, For the life of me, I don't understand hoe knowing the temperature of a room that is too hot and the temperature of a room that is too cold on an unbalanced steam system makes anything better? Don't you have to actually need to balance the radiators in a steam system?

exqheat

We know that the BTU output of a boiler has nothing to do with the balance of the system. Before the boiler can do its job the building has to accept the BTU's in a balanced way. Adjusting the size of the radiators and the venting is essential.

SteamingatMohawk

@EdTheHeaterMan As you said, it doesn't. I had a problem with an out of control tenant, who did not understand what it meant for his apartment to have the single thermostat for the whole house. Plus, he would open windows and leave the house in the middle of the night, causing issues with the other apartments. Also, he would operate the gas stove late at night, causing the heat to not come on as frequently, because of the proximity of the thermostat on the living room wall (It had never happened with previous tenants for 36 years). I had the option to move the thermostat, but because of his other actions, I had to get rid of him. But I did speculate that moving the thermostat to another location in the living room (I installed thermometers about 12 feet apart to compare how the locations responded to calls for heat) might solve the cooking problem. But if that worked, it might reduce the likelihood of being able to get rid of the tenant.

So, I installed the thermometers to have some idea if the heat was excessively on or off because of his behavior. It actually helped get to where I needed to be with eviction.

This winter there was a problem with apartments being too hot, but not the one with the thermostat. A little mental diagnostics pointed to the radiator in the living room with the thermostat was not working properly vs. who knows what other cause could there be (like a tenant shutting the supply valve for the radiator). My first action was to remove the MoM and blow through it. It was stuck closed. Easy fix, since I have multiple spares and orifices.

With 4 tenants in an almost 100 year old converted 2 family, having the sensors has paid off.

Relative to balance, the system was fine with previous tenants and I didn't have to do anything for many years previous with the same tenants in all 4 apartments. This guy showed up and it all went crazy, to the extent some tenants hinted at leaving because of his antics over and above the heat problem he created.

I was fortunate that his brother is also a landlord and understood the problems with his brother's behavior. The last I knew, the tenant moved into one of his brother's apartments.

I felt bad evicting him, but it was a justified business decision.

exqheat

It is always a judgement call for temperature sensor location. We use the Radio Frequency sensor for a few reasons. If the resident tamper we can notice an abnormal reading. We can put it in a box. We can move it to a more resionable resident quarters. Some times a hallway will do if there is a readiator in the hallway. Any location takes some judgement, and some fire and adjust. After things settle down, the settings will last for years. With our algoritims the near Precise boiler BTU output, the bllance is rather easy. For hot water systems, high circulation 60% at a neutrally adjusted supply temperature, all radiators are the same temperature. For steam, there may be a need to adjust vent orifice. This takes me to the preference for Maid-o-Mist variable orifice selection. I collect the old orifices from disposed old vents. I have quite a jar of them. I do a lot of radiators.

SteamingatMohawk

Interesting website. What could it do for my converted 2 family into 4 1br apartments in a nearly 100 year old house with one thermostat in the coldest room in the house?

exqheat

Assuming this is a steam system.

Check boiler pressuretrol setting for .5 lb to 2 lb range.

assure proper venting in basement piping.

check size of vents on the radiators. Make sure they are pointing up.

Your goal is to warm up the cool rooms and cool down the hot rooms.

Once you balance the radiators, have the thermostat in an upper room.

If you cannot trust the occupants to not touch the thermostat, replace the thermostat with a remote wired sensor and install a Honeywell 8000 in a secure location connecting the old tt wire with the sensor at the end and the wire to tt on the burner. If you want you can get an 8000 with red link. This will allow for using a remote Radio Frequency sensor, and the ability to attach an internet (red Link) to a cable box server.

After all that, assure that you have 1-2 inch fiberglass insulation on all boiler and basement steam piping.

SteamingatMohawk

Thanks.

I have the Honeywell wireless thermostat with the internet gateway, so I can monitor and control the heat from my cell phone. I also have wifi temperature/humidity sensors in each living room, so I can make sure all 4 tenants are getting the proper amount of heat.

The only thing on the list I haven't done is to insulate the return legs and I decided years ago to let them provide some heat to the basement.

exqheat

The reurn pipes are not so important to insulate. Thesupply pipes prevent premature condensation of the steam. Balancing the radiators is you most important task. Also be sure the location of the remote sensor can not be placed on a window sill on cold nights. Clever tenents will do clever things.

SteamingatMohawk

The thermostat is mounted on the wall.

exqheat

If the location is OK you can use a wired sensor to the 8000.

SteamingatMohawk

I don't need to do anything. I bought the wireless thermostat so I could locate the thermostat anywhere I wanted without running wires. I added the gateway so I could control the system with my cell phone. These two actions made a tremendous improvement in my ability to manage the system.

Thanks for the info, anyhow.

Long Beach Ed

I've worked with HeatTimers for many years on many buildings. I believe they are an overkill for a seven unit building. You can do a better job for far less money with a good thermostat and remote sensors.

As others have stated, I'd first balance the system so all rooms were essentially the same temperature and heated evenly. Get out of the boiler room and get the system working properly first. Proper radiator sizes, proper venting.

Then I'd look at a thermostat with several hidden temperature sensors in several apartments. Remote sensors are available that can be hidden beneath wall surfaces or attached to blank outlet plates. The thermostat would be in the boiler room with a remote control from your phone.

I operate many buildings this way. It has been inexpensive, efficient and flawless.

ARobertson13

I do not normally do work in heating systems that are residential plants with under 10 units. My experience is similar to Long Beach Ed. You do not need Heat timer or Tekmar controllers. Even in larger units like my 5 floor 29 unit building I replaced the Heat timer unit and another with two Johnson control A421 units and a 432 Mhz wireless sensor to shut off the system when the steam reaches the radiator on the top floor. A similar arrangement was used in a smaller two floor residential building without the wireless sensor. For those of you who have the old electro mechanical Heat Timer units that are not functioning and want to keep them there is a company in Staten Island called Seasonal Heating Controls that repairs them.

operator80

update: I went with the a Honeywell T10+ and remote sensor in the furthest apt from the boiler, and typically coldest. Installed this about two weeks ago and it’s been a game changer already, no more heat complaints and I’m not seeing anymore open apartment windows when it’s freezing out. I should’ve done it years ago, and it was wayyyyyy cheaper than going with heattimer. Saved over 6k. Cant wait to see how this small change affects my gas bills. Also have a building next door, 6apt and 2comm, put in a a Vision Pro 8000 with wireless sensor and that system is running better now too though that one is hydronic and not steam.

Long Beach Ed

Now this summer, work on balancing that steam system. Most of the work will be replacing vents or traps, which were last serviced when Hoover was president.

SteamingatMohawk

When I got serious about balancing I did two things. First, I told the tenants that the criterion is their comfort, not what a thermometer says. Second, the thermometers in the apartments were all different as were my two laser thermometers. So, I bought a bunch of +/-1/2 F accuracy thermometers, so everyone was reading the same accuracy. I checked how consistent they were as seen in the photo, along with my laser thermometers. It made balancing/comfort a lot easier for all of us.

Bottom line, I'm essentially done with balancing as long as all my tenants remain in the house.

Long Beach Ed

I understand that you're done balancing.

Knock on any door and you get a list of things that are wrong with the apartment, and stuff you have to do. I avoid tenants at any expense. Any three minute conversation with a tenant usually earns me a day's pointless work…

exqheat

This kind of relationship will chase your best tenants, in a heart beat.

exqheat

The key to comunication is to have comunication. Treat your tenants like you would like to be teated. I have a check list that I use and the tenants appreciate the concern for comfort and safety. Use this check list for annual visits to each apartment will save enrgy in heating and especially domestic hot water. I could go on and on. "Prevention is worth a pound of cure". Precise control can be 10-20% savings on your heating fuel bill.