Stupid Little Bracket
The bracket for the flame roll out sensor snapped in half while cleaning inside the firebox. This was my solution.
Effective? Or is there some unforseen hazard I've created?
Comments
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The bracket looks ok. The wires and crimps not so much.
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Yea, I noticed that, they look at a little over done. I would cut it back and recrimp but it'll probably just happen again. I made sure the wires are not touching so the circuit is cut if the sensor gets cooked. This bracket also pulls the whole Assembly about a half inch further back from the cover plate. Maybe less heat now…
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put some fiberglass or similar sleeving on it when you reterminate it. if the wires to it short it will not sense rollout
i would have used a little piece of hanger iron to make the bracket
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find out why the wiring is burned!
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that too. but strip the cable outer jacket back several inches and sleeve it with fiberglass, otherwise it will be the mr coffee situation.
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If you're getting roll out you need to find and solve that problem
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That looks like a new roll out switch, so I guess the old one must've done its job.
IIWM, I'd be looking at why…
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*eye roll* So much assumption.
The metal was brittle and fatigued. It snapped as soon as I lifted the cover off the keyhole screws. It would have broken for the next person regardless of who or how skilled. I would have exerted more force trying to take the wires off so I moved it as one piece.
That roll out sensor was added on several years ago along with a back draft sensor as a safety upgrade by company I hired. The boiler has never back drafted or suffered a roll out situation since I've owned the house(15 years).
The sensor has never been replaced since added on and is still functional as is. The wires were not burned from direct contact with flame. Just the intense radiative heat.
I was only doing seasonal cleaning. No repairs were being done and no faults had occurred until the fatigued metal of the bracket broke. I also turn the gas off during the summer so need to relit the pilot as well.
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Even more *eye rolls*. The wire is bare. Something's not right, or (I suppose) wasn't right in the past.
Flames might not have licked it, but flue gasses did.
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I had asked if the repair that I did inadvertently created an issue for the roll out sensor. My concern centered around using a cheap zinc plated piece of metal and the sensor being moved out a half inch further from the fire box opening. Not to have the insinuation of being a lier and/or stupid tossed about.
Thank you for reminding me why I stopped visiting the forums.
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I'd say the new bracket is fine, probably more durable (thicker metal) than the original. Since it was not installed by the OEM, my question is, is it in the correct position. With normal operation the wiring should not be getting damaged. Damaged wires may compromise the safety benefits it was installed to perform.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
the door that the bracket is mounted to looks like it has been pretty hot also? I’d wonder why the service company added two safeties if it was running and drafting properly.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
I'm sorry if you felt like I was implying you were lying or stupid, I don't believe you are lying, and I don't believe you are stupid. What I do believe is that the roll out switch has seen conditions that match a roll out.
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Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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No ****umptions here!
The wires are burned, the heat shield is discolored, It is an after-market control but your fixated on the bracket. There are other issues with that unit.
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Ok. You upgraded the boiler by adding the Spill Switch and Rollout. That's good. But the wiring to the Rollout is obviously suspect. It needs to be protected.
The burns could be due to poor draft, or it could be due to poor crimps. Both need to be checked. Either way, by posting about the bracket, you brought a possible problem to the keen eyes of the people here, who are only trying to help make sure things don't go boom.
I'm going with bad crimps. And with the insulation gone, are the wires touching each other?
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This comment's insinuation was disrespectful and not helpful. I've removed it. Please follow site rules and remember that we are all here to learn and not to fight with one another.
-Andrew
Forum Moderator
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JakeCK has been with us a long time, so let's give him a break. At least he didn't jumper the safety.
8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour
Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
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Not my intention to be disrespectful here. but now that I look at it, it can be taken the wrong way. Therefore I apologize if anyone took this in a way that was not intended. It was a poor choice at humor on my part.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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IMO if that Flame Roll Out sensor is in the 24VAC control circuit there is not enough power there to cause that amount of damage to the wires, so bad crimp(s) is not the root cause of the dilapidated wires.
Since there is damage it should be repaired, since it cause a boiler failure when you need it the most.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
it is the current, not the voltage that generates heat so you can generate enough heat to burn connections at 24v but I think that is rollout that caused the damage in this case. the bigger danger rather than failure is that with the insulation melted the wires can short together and bypass the thermal fuse rendering the safety inoperative.
there was a model of mr coffee coffee maker where the wires to the thermal fuse were just vinyl insulated and they crossed over each other on their way to the thermal fuse so if the t-stat failed the insulation would melt and short the wires together and keep the heater powered even after the thermal fuse blows.
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The damage was caused by Heat. Heat = Power, I x E and in this case the available power will be limited by the normal load and the transformer too. And if you want to fixate on the current it is normally very low anyway. That is a lot of damage for milliAmps of current at 24 VAC or less.
In this case the result of a shorted wires due to the heat damage could disable the Flame Roll Out sensor's safety functionality.
Also in this case, as far as the cause of the wiring meltdown the Mr. Coffee scenario was not a Class 2 limited circuit, that's a poor comparison IMO.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
it is the same thing. the wiring in this case is heated by the rollout from the burner controlled by the thermal fuse, in the case of the coffee maker it is heated by the heating element in the pot warmer controlled by the thermal fuse. either way if the wires to the thermal fuse aren't insulated with high temp insulation the external heat source can melt the insulation and cause the conductors to short together and bypass the thermal fuse.
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One case is an electric heater out of control and in this case excessive flame rollout, not the same. In this case the current did not damage the crimps, the external heat source of the flames did.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
i'm not talking about the "crimps". i'm talking about the cable. in both cases the heater that is being protected melted the wire and caused the conductors to touch under the right conditions and bypass the safety.
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