Overfill alarm
Our condo complex just received a $500 fine for have no emergency overfill alarm. For years we didn’t have any and used the whistle stop provided by the oil delivery company . However, it is a new law in Westchester county. Anyhow, seeing our tank is underground, under the driveway/parking lot, we have gotten proposals. Total sticker shock. The question is, is there some sort of retrofit device that we can add to either the oil gauge in the Maintence office with maybe l WiFi to signal and exterior light, bell of some sort or is there a device to pace on top of the fill port itself. Also, I should add the judge said that a whistle stop itself is not good enough. We need both an audio & visual alarm. Thanks for your help/ advice.
Comments
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Please edit to remove prices. I thin this is exactly a few people here's territory so there should be some people familiar with the rule.
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More rules that are not needed. Just trying to force people into heat pumps.
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Why? That’s what is quoted to do the job. All I’m asking if it’s reasonable and is there another device that would be cheaper to install. If this is insulting to you, then that’s on you quite frankly.
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It's not insulting, it's just not allowed here.
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Fine from who?
How large is the tank?
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See rule 4
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As @ratio said, job prices simply aren't allowed here, and never have been. So you might ask — why? Well, this is a global forum — not confined to any one small area in the US. We have people all over the globe, never mind all over the country. Thus a price which might be "reasonable" in one place could be insanely low somewhere else — or insanely high. Further, even within the same area, there is a substantial possibility that either contractors might agree on certain pricing — or actively try to undercut. Neither is desirable.
We do allow pricing comments on publicly available equipment purchases — such as from Grainer or Supply House.
I trust that his makes some sense.
Now if you do have a remote level gauge many such can be fitted with various local or remote alarms; a security company might be a good place to enquire.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England1 -
Try this part Scully 50" w/ UNIFIL, VF 4815. This is an underground tank filler that we used to carry on the delivery truck. You insert it into the tank and then pull the vent whistle tube up until it hit the top of the tank. When the whistle stopped the oil level was within 6 inches from the top of the tank. That is all you really need. Have it available for the delivery driver on the day of the delivery. Or for the inspector who needs to see it so you don't get fined.
It is not weather tight so you need to remove it and place the cap on the fill pipe. Or you can build a weatherproof enclosure over the tank fill and leave that VF 4815 in the tank permanently.
It all depends on the inspector that has the ability to issue the fine. This part should be something the fuel delivery company provides, But it appears that the Authority Having Jurisdiction does not see it that way.
As far as a visual way to see the overflow, I would provide a pare of glasses with the underground fill alarm. This way the driver will be able to see the oil come out of the fill pipe if the driver does not shut off the fuel nozzle when the whistle stops. Perhaps the enclosure can have a sheetmetal funnel that will catch the overflowed fuel that is visible when the driver forgets to turn off the nozzle when the whistle stops.
Here is a drawing of the complete set up using two funnels and the visible overflow tube, in a weather proof enclosure. See if the judge will approve this setup and have the judge inform the building permit folks to issue the proper permit for the judge approved additions.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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The op said"
"used the whistle stop provided by the oil delivery company"
Sounds to me like this town is against oil as a fuel and is trying to force the issue. I think they want some type of wired alarm system.
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I would like to see the actual ordinance wording to see if my alarm with visual overflow ability will fit the words. If it says electronic sensor, I can certainly add some wires and lights to that with a condensate overflow switch like the one on AC evaporator coil pan. They would be parts W, X and Y
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Thank you for all the good advice. My suspicions were confirmed. The county is just trying to make money off of us and I’m gonna do exactly that, look for the wording in the ordinance. And we don’t want to be so combative, it’s just that our building can’t really afford that with all the flooding issues we had & the new roof. We’re really scrapping for cash these days. Also, to add Insult to injury, the county charges us an annual storage fee to store oil on our own property.
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I'm curious to know more about the visual alarm. Typically you get the visual only when the audio fails. Which is why the audio is so important.
How old is the tank? If its steel and it's been sitting there over 30 years, then it's probably time to think about more than a whistle.
The quotes given is peanuts compared to what the EPA will charge if theres a leak.
What size is the tank? How many tanks in the complex? Have any been abated?
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just one tank, it’s a 5,000 gallon one and it’s recently new within the last 7 years. Yes, that’s what we said to the court that the delivery company has their own whistle stop but they said that this wasn’t acceptable. We visual as well.🤷🏼♂️ Agreed, it’s a very nominal price compared to if a leak was going to occur. The problem is, is that with all the recent flooding (new boilers, garage doors & a new roof) we are basically running on fumes, sort of speak so a $$k bill is a huge amount at this point.
thanks for listening0 -
I would like to see the ordinance as well sound like government overreach to me.
Charging you to store your own oil is rediculous
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This is the reason why I asked about the size of the tank. They do make, and I don’t know the name of it, but I call it a California fill pipe. It has a float on an arm inside the fill, that will lift and close the fill pipe at 90% (or another preset percentage). Then the driver closes the delivery nozzle, pulls a spring loaded lever to relieve the pressure and drain the fill pipe, and disconnects the nozzle. You can combine that with a buzzer that sounds at 95%.
They are similar to what’s used on gravity drop service station tanks.I think this is it.
https://www.opwglobal.com/products/us/retail-fueling-products/ast-equipment/ast-overfill-prevention-valves
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Another option for you is the petrometer with its wireless remote monitoring and alarm system.
www.petro-meter
tel. 631-225-2522
toll free 800-935-8257
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I was thinking this was residential but the OP posted that the tank is 5000 gallons. They may have different rules from commercial to residential.
Around here at one time anything over 2000 was considered commercial even if it was a house.
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Hello
Hello scarav3063,
We need to know what type of tank was buried in the ground to replace the old one so I can help you further.
Is this 7 year old tank a single wall tank? Is this buried tank equipped with an above ground fill pipe with locked lid/cap and whistle pipe at the same height???
Was a concrete slab poured in the excavation to support the weight of the tank? Were two concrete supports placed on the slab to support the weight of the tank or was the tank lowered into the excavation and held up right with chains and then back filled with dirt placed around it and then compacted?
Did the contractor lay a very heavy sheet of plastic as a barrier under the concrete slab before it was poured and a second sheet barrier plastic laid on the slab after it cured on the slab before the tank was lowered into place on the slab?
Or another question; is this tank equipped with a manway hatch riser to the surface? Are the piping connections for the fill pipe and whistle pipe and the fuel delivery lines located in the riser if it has a riser with a cover?
Page four of the Petro-Meter catalog describes the model 1706 hand pump gauge system that quickly shows the below ground tanks fuel level.
Page 6 of the Petro-Meter catalog shows their overfill alarm.
if there is no access cover on the oil tank it would be necessary to excavate the tank to expose a location with a one inch or greater tapping to install it using a one inch coupling with a reducer pipe of the length desired by the user to indicate the oil level in the tank for the alarm to sound.
The alarm requires an electric connection for it (the transducer/transmitter) to work. The alarm system can be installed inside or outside in a weatherproof control box.
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So I looked up the related ordinances regarding the requirement for a visual and audible alarm for fuel oil storage tanks in Westchester County NY. I did a word search on the entire document related to Storage Tanks and found only 3 places where the phrase "audible and visual" show up in that document. Here they are:
Section 873.2502.3 starts on page 38 and continues until your reach subsection (d) on page 45
Section 873.2503.3 starts on page 62 and continues to subsection (d) on page 68 and finishes up on page 69
There is an unrelated section about Aboveground Storage Tanks (AST) here:
Section 873.2504.3 starts on page 82 and continues to subsection (d) on page 85
All three part (d) item (1) of the ordinance are identical as to the requirement of an Audible and Visual means of detection MAY be used. There is nothing that states that an audio and visible detection system MUST be used. I believe that the judge may be overstepping his authority in his interpretation of the statute. I might be inclined to appeal that decision and $500.00 fine.
That Statute looks more like ongoing monitoring of possible fuel leaking, not for monitoring during the tank filling and delivery process. The delivery company has that covered already with their whistle attachment.
As far as ongoing monitoring is concerned, If you place a timer on the oil valve of each burner, that will clocks how long the valve is open, and multiply the total hours (or minutes divided by 60) by the firing rate of the nozzle, that will give you the exact amount of fuel being used from your tank. Compare that with daily (or weekly) tank measurements with a tank stick. That should tell you if the amount of fuel leaving the tank is equal to the amount of fuel being delivered to the burner(s). You can also reconcile those daily/weekly numbers every time you get a delivery. Purchasing some fancy electronic device may be an option but sometimes just good old human interaction and mathematics is much more accurate. A log book will be needed for evidence that you are in compliance with the leak monitoring statute of Westchester County NY
I hope this helps.Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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I work in the world of underground storage tanks (USTs) and although I'm not up to speed on NY regulations, I wanted to offer some information that may provide some clarification. USTs are regulated by the federal government but most states have requirements that are more stringent than what USEPA requires. I don't know if that is the case in NY but I suspect considering how NY manages other environmental regulatory programs I suspect it is. At the federal level, if a tank is a consumptive use tank, meaning it stores fuel for on-site heating and domestic hot water, it is generally exempt from most requirements. This tank would be considered consumptive use so the first thing you can check whether the state has exemptions for consumptive use tanks.
Assuming the tank isn't exempt, for USTs you are typically required to have various monitoring systems, including inventory monitoring, leak detection, and overfill prevention systems. Inventory monitoring systems are intended to allow you to keep track of the fuel level and water (if any) in the tank. Leak detection systems are intended to continuously monitor both the tank and the piping for leaks. The references you see in the above post about "automatic line leak detectors (ALLDs)" wouldn't likely apply to this type of tank. ALLDs are required when you have a pressurized piping system (i.e., the pump is at the tank and is forcing fuel through the lines to equipment it is supplying). These are common at retail gas stations or in other installations where the tank is somewhat far from the equipment it is connected to. What you may have is a double wall tank and double wall piping, which is continuously monitored via interstitial leak detection sensors, connected to a monitoring system.
The overfill prevention I mentioned is a means of preventing releases from tanks that could occur due to overfilling during the delivery process. With typical basement style heating oil tanks the vent whistle is the most common method for this, but with USTs it is often a mechanical valve in the fill pipe, or an overfill alarm connected to the tank monitoring system. If it's a mechanical valve in the shutoff, it will restrict flow into the tank during the delivery when the inventory reaches a specific level (typically 90% of the tank's capacity). The mechanical valve has a float in the tank and simply closes off the fill pipe when the float rises up to the prescribed height. The height of the valve in the tank is set when it is installed to close at the desired level, but not more than 95% of the capacity.
The other common type of overfill prevention for USTs is the audible/visual overfill alarm. This is an alarm set near where the fill pipe is that will alert the delivery driver when the tank reaches a specific limit (not more than 90% of the tank's capacity). These alarms are connected to the tank monitoring system. The monitoring system is programmed with the overfill value and when the monitoring system detects the volume reaching that limit it will activate the overfill alarm.
Again, I'm not up to speed on NY tank regulations but it wouldn't surprise me if some of the things I mentioned above are required for this tank, even it is a consumptive use tank. Hope that's helpful.
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