New boiler - pipe noise / surging
Hello - I had a new boiler installed one month ago, a Peerless Series 63-05. The day after installation we started getting loud pipe noise. Our installer attributed it to the oils. They've been out 4 times to skim it. The first few times it would help, and the noise would go away for a few days. But after their most recent visit, it's happening multiple times a day, so I was looking for advice. They used 'Squick' the first few times. I'm not sure if they used it this most recent time.
I've been trying to troubleshoot on my own. I've skimmed it for multiple hours, both while the boiler is running and while it is off. I've pulled water off from the bottom multiple times as well. I've been doing this multiple hours a day for about 6 days in a row now, with no improvement. It seems like there is "muck" at the bottom of the boiler that gets stirred up once it fires up. Hardly any of this muck is at the top, so skimming is low yield.
The noise tends to occur about 5-10 minutes after it has turned on, (usually after it has been off for a couple hours). The water line is steady at first, but then it gradually starts to bounce more and more, until there is some kind of reverberation or wave of pressure that occurs and then BANG! There is a huge rattle noise that comes from the boiler and travels throughout the house quite suddenly. Wakes us up every morning at about 5:30am as it's firing up for the day. Then it occurs occasionally throughout the day.
Do I just keep skimming? It seems weird that skimming used to help, but now it's not working. Did the squick just collect everything at the bottom of the boiler and now some of it gets stirred up and causes the surging? Unfortunately draining from the bottom near-boiler pipe usually just drains clear water.
Thanks for your help! Sorry for the amateur question.
Comments
-
Please post some more pictures of boiler piping. Try to stand back and get from different angles.
1 -
Sorry about that. Here you go.
0 -
This horizontal piping is not great. Not sure if that's the underlying problem but that should be at a minimum 45° angle.
1 -
Can you get a clearer picture of this control? That is where the low water cutoff should be.
0 -
This low water cut off, is certainly not in the proper location. Unless there is a remote probe
1 -
Looks like there is redundant safety controls, two pressuretrols and two LWCO units. The LWCO next to the sight glass probably also activates the auto water feeder and the second (pictured) looks like it is added into the drain piping and is way too low.
The at least partly counter flow main(s) and the way it is connected into the header may be your hammer issue. Did the pitch change from the old boiler ?
Also still looks like there is oily junk in the sight glass.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System1 -
And the riser from the boiler looks like it could be undersized. Check the piping you have against the MFG drawing in the boiler Manual.
1 -
And while you are doing the various things above…
Get rid of the Squick. Shot the boiler down and let it cool, then drain it out completely. Refill. Drain it again. Refill it again. Drain it again. Do NOT add any chemical of any kind.
Now refill it and skim it very slowly for a couple of hours…
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
3 -
The 63-05 requires twin 2" risers and a 3" header. It appears that this was properly done.
The only piping issue that might be affecting the boiler is difficult to see in the photos. Check the size of the single main takeoff off the header. It appears to be 3" when it leaves the header but then appears to narrow near the union. If it is actually 2" (with a 2" union), anywhere along that section, this must be changed. The velocity through a single 2" is ridiculous for that boiler.
Notice that this section meets the old piping and that piping looks to be 4" which is perfect!
Finally, what are the settings on the Pressuretrol? Most installers set the boiler to elevated pressures (4 psi or more) thinking the boiler will perform better when the opposite is the case. It should be not more than 2 psi and 1.5 psi is even better.
0 -
Wow thank you all for taking the time to help. Yes, in the morning there is oily junk at the top of the sight glass with crystal clear water beneath it. I skim that off, and then it returns throughout the day. When the water is clear and the boiler fires up I see brown muck that stirs up from the bottom.
Yes, that is a redundant LWCO, and it does look like it's at 'N - Boiler Drain'. I will ask the installer why it is so low. From that screenshot you provided it looks like it should be at 'Y - secondary probe lwco'.
I believe the riser is the right size and matches the manual.
The angle of the counter flow connection to the header was not there in the old system.My theory is the squick collected a bunch of the chemicals and a lot of it is settled at the bottom. Boiler fires—>stirs up that muck—>a fraction of it escapes and settles at the top in a fat layer/causes surging—>most of it settles back to the bottom. If this theory is accurate, I'm hoping a ton of skimming will eventually help. But I have no idea what I'm doing so I could easily be wrong.
0 -
Can we get a clearer picture of the primary low water cutoff? Does not look like the typical LWCO
0 -
Fill and drain the boiler a bunch of times, to get rid of the squick. Get some eight-way boiler cleaner. Dump a bunch in. Fire the boiler. Shut boiler when it starts steaming. Wait a bit then fire again. Shut when starts steaming..... Repeat for 30-60 minutes. Drain, fill,drain fill bunch of times. Fire up boiler and see what happens. Eight-way is not designed to remove oils, but in my personal experience, it will remove oils and significantly speeds up the skimming process.
0 -
And for the record, not sure why they didn't flip the boiler, 180 degrees, before installation. Would have made the flue piping easier.
0 -
My theory is the squick collected a bunch of the chemicals and a lot of it is settled at the bottom. Boiler fires—>stirs up that muck—>a fraction of it escapes and settles at the top in a fat layer/causes surging—>most of it settles back to the bottom. If this theory is accurate, I'm hoping a ton of skimming will eventually help.
Your theory might be accurate. And, if so, to remedy needs the capability of draining the bottom of the boiler. Note that you have an elbow at the point where the equalizer reaches the bottom of the boiler. This should have been a Tee with a pipe nipple and a ball valve to allow you to drain the bottom of the boiler to remove this material.
Skimming will not help as the material does not float to any degree that will remove it.
0 -
There might be a boiler drain, on the left side of the boiler.
0 -
There might be a boiler drain, on the left side of the boiler.
0 -
Wow you guys are quick with your replies. Thanks!
I realized there is a drain connected to the pipe leading to the secondary LWCO, so I opened that and was able to drain a bunch of thick brown stuff. Not as much as what I had imagined would be down there, but I'll keep doing that over the next few days and hopefully more of it comes out. I will look into using the eight-way cleaner. As you can see my water is still a bit opaque even after draining/filling a few times.
As far as the orientation, I was also puzzled, because the flue piping was on the other side for the last boiler. I assumed there must be something about PB that didn't align with my water/gas hookup if they faced it the other way. Not sure. I can ask.
Few more pictures, close ups of the LWCOs etc.
*Edit: you may also notice how the cement floor has been stained brown. Despite all my efforts to catch everything in a hose or a bucket, there's still some scattered spraying that has occurred. If anyone has any advice on how to best clean that up, please let me know. I realized too late that I tracked some of it into other areas of my house.
1 -
sorry didn't see this post before. Looks like one of the pressuretrols is between 1-2 and the other is just below 5. I am unfamiliar with pressuretrols and how they affect normal operation. Regarding the piping, I'm not sure on the sizes, but hopefully these pictures shed some light.
0 -
The pressure control with the red button, is an emergency backup. In case the primary control fails. Should actually be set a bit higher. Typically between 7 and 10 lb. Interesting primary low water cutoff. I did not even know that those existed.
0 -
Boiler piping is significantly undersized.
0 -
The installer needs to come back. And there should be a second takeoff for each main.
0 -
Not piped right the take off for the system has to come off the top of the header
0 -
There are a few of issues with the piping, but I think the major problem with performance is due to oil on the water surface.
As Jamie called out earlier, skim that boiler at the water surface over and over until the oil is out of it. Then see if you need further improvements.
Once the water's cleaned up, if it's still misbehaving, consider correcting what Ed is saying about the takeoff from the header…
1 -
I call That brown/black gunk , Splunck. Must get it all.out..mad dog
1 -
0
-
Good photo.
See the piping that comes out of the header………….that's 3"
Now, look at the piping that enters the union.
From this view, it appears that they reduced the pipe size to less than 3" and used a smaller union. See if you can measure the pipe that enters the union. It appears smaller than 3"
Take a piece of string and wrap it all the way around the pipe…………make a mark on the string where it overlaps………….then measure the string. We'll convert it to the pipe size. Make sure the string is tight when you run it around and be careful marking the string where it overlaps the standing portion.
If you're lucky, the photo simply shows the two pipes differently and it is all 3".
0 -
Looks to me not only do you have one common feed from the boiler going into the joined mains (not good but I have lived with this) but eventually the two mains come back to the boiler on the return side joining above the water line which is really not good. The two mains should be vented independently then drop below water line and join together.
Also looks like there might have been a drip that got capped off on the main to the right (circled). The main to the left is obviously counterflow initially and then likely changes to parallel after the rise. The main on the right I have no idea whether it starts off counter or parallel flow but there is going to be some condensate coming back at least from the left that should be dripped out.
0 -
3 Inch keeps getting kicked around. I don't see any reducers and the 90 looks like 2 inch to me.
I agree with @dabrakeman, was this drip in used with the old boiler and it has been abandoned with this install. there may be condensate sitting in that part of the main causing hammer.
Not seeing a lot of supports on the piping, could be a sag somewhere too trapping condensate.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System
1 -
I sure hope not. This would mean the header is also 2". They look almost identical. If so, that's not going to work.
0 -
This pipe should be a close nipple or it could cause water hammer.
1 -
The Hartford loop nipple, is the least of the problems. And if that does cause hammer, it would be by the Hartford loop itself.
0 -
The Hartford loop should be as short as possible. Some people use a wye instead of a tee, but a close nipple or a street elbow works too. I'm not sure what using a 2" pipe for it does, but I've never seen a Hartford that big. I can't see the water level in the picture, but I'd be willing to bet that at least part of the Hartford is above the water level at mid cycle. If it's half full of steam it'll bang for sure.
Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-240 -
Not to be under stated not every one who thinks they can pipe a steam boiler can and are surely full of it. I guess they are much better at getting the job over doing it correctly . Aside from clearly obvious like hartford loop nipple being to long .lol amerture mistake . But how about the fact that they left the bull headed tee in the main which most w a idea would have seperated ,a pro also would have added some pipe hangers to ensure proper pitch aside from up dated main and radiator venting . Usually on peerless boiler a 5 section and above are always both tappings and a 4 inch header. Also doing it in steel and then throwing in a bunch of pro press on the equalizer again something that most real steam guys would not do on near boiler piping . Its not like you need to cut and thread usually i do these and all the near boiler piping is pre cut nipples and maybe we cut one or two to tie into the existing mains but truth be told its usually all pre cuts no need for a pipe threading and on a cold walk in job we are usually done w the heat on in 8 to 9 hours no nonsense and its usually two old farts doing the work { over 60 crowd } . On side note is experience when you have been doing steam boilers for 30 to 40 years you get it correct the first time and cut zero corners ,i rarely have installation related issues ,This is also why i always will be higher priced and usually will not budge on the price ,i'm more then happy then to let some one else do it being i'm not practicing on some one else's dime it s on my dime .
As much as removing a steam boiler and getting the new one down is some times a tough one physically it would seem w all the poorly wrongly piped steam boilers that again that it seems that the sales pitch is fabolous but the follow up and see it through is quite poor . I think that those who do not ready or study there chosen profession and fail to follow some pretty simple diagram should find a another profession aside from trying to install steam boilers maybe cleaning carpets .
The common mistakes that others have pointed out clearly show some one who does not have the finer points of installing a steam boiler all figured out sadly and i would hope they would correct on there dime not yours .
And to think i lose jobs all the time to those who do that type of installation work and boost they know what they are doing but then do it wrong and then come up w excuses to the issue .Way to funny at least to me being the repipe is usually way out of consideration money wise unless the loser who installed will do on there dime .
peace and good luck clammy
R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
NJ Master HVAC Lic.
Mahwah, NJ
Specializing in steam and hydronic heating1 -
thanks for all of the comments. quick update: since draining yesterday using that other drain that I found, haven't had any additional noise. I'll probably do another drain/fill daily for the next few days.
It's unfortunate to hear all of the things the installers did wrong, considering the cost of everything. I had 4 different companies provide quotes, and went with these guys because they clearly had the most experience with steam. They were in the middle of the pack with their price. So far they've been extremely helpful coming out to look at it ever since the installation, spending several hours with each visit making tweaks and skimming, without any charge, so that's encouraging.
As for now, boiler is quiet, house is warm, can't complain.0 -
Amazing. Just for the record. Draining will remove oils. I speak from experience. But will certainly not remove all oils. Draining is not a substitute for skimming. It is a supplement.
0 -
Yes, sorry what I meant was cold skim → drain → fill → hot skim → drain until water level is at the target line. Sometimes it's hot skim first. Doing this once a day for a few days. Also going to have the installer come take a look.
1
Categories
- All Categories
- 86.8K THE MAIN WALL
- 3.1K A-C, Heat Pumps & Refrigeration
- 56 Biomass
- 423 Carbon Monoxide Awareness
- 105 Chimneys & Flues
- 2K Domestic Hot Water
- 5.6K Gas Heating
- 104 Geothermal
- 160 Indoor-Air Quality
- 3.6K Oil Heating
- 69 Pipe Deterioration
- 952 Plumbing
- 6.2K Radiant Heating
- 385 Solar
- 15.3K Strictly Steam
- 3.4K Thermostats and Controls
- 54 Water Quality
- 43 Industry Classes
- 47 Job Opportunities
- 18 Recall Announcements