Oil burner intermittent stuttering
Looking for any advice. I have an older oil fired boiler that powers my hot water baseboards and domestic hot water. It runs well except fairly often it will stutter during its running cycle which causes the flu damper to flap back and forth. I can hear a sound that sounds like the flame (??) stuttering on and off. After a few seconds of this it will usually go back to normal for a while. This can be heard usually multiple times a day. This doesn’t affect its function (provides plenty of heat), and I haven’t had to manually reset it.
Had a tech come out and he bled the line and there was some air in it. Also found the pump was set at too low of a pressure (100 instead of 140psi), and that was corrected. It seemed to run well while he was here and he left. However the issue still continued.
He returned and of course while he was here it ran perfectly for several cycles. He suggested to ignore it as it’s not affecting its function. However, they are offering to install a tiger loop system that should bleed out any air and alleviate the issue. It is a bit pricier than I would prefer for that, but if that will solve the issue it would be worth it.
Is that a good solution or a bandaid? Why would my oil line have air? It’s a single line from the tank in the garage overhead to the boiler, however the line does have a weird T split into two lines right before the burner (see photos). I believe it was converted from a two line system in the past (possibly when the tank was upgraded). When they install the tiger loop they would get rid of that split.
Any help is appreciated on what my next steps should be.
Video: Watch unnamed | Streamable
Note that in the video the sound does not come through very much at all unfortunately.
Comments
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Well… I regard a TigerLoop as a bit of a bandaid, but it would certainly help. What would also help, though, is to find and fix the air leak. One or more of those flares it likely the culprit.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
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The first thing that needs to be explained is the fuel line that comes out from the bull of the tee…………..where does it go? I see it pass behind and below the burner but don't see any attachment to the fuel pump.
I'm also a bit curious about that blob of white material on the fuel pump just below the inlet. Why is it there and what is it attempting to seal?
It’s a single line from the tank in the garage overhead to the boiler,
Explain in more detail. What is overhead…………..the tank…………..or the boiler? Does the tank have a top feed or a bottom feed?
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What they did is they created a Rube Goldberg two line system with one line, that is exactly what it looks like.
A tigerloop with a single line and treating the fuel with DIESEL 9-1-1 or HEAT fuel treatment would help.
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Hilarious. Get it done correctly. I always thought that setup was a Sasquatch. I heard the rumors, but didn't think it really existed.
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It's an interesting setup. I have it here with FHA. I call it the 1.5 pipe system. The problem with it is that any air that gets in goes around in a circle. It's not so easy to eliminate it. You must bleed a lot of fuel. It is possible for this air to cause the symptom that the OP observes. Not enough to shut the pump down but enough to notice.
Do you see any connection for the return below the pump? The orange seems to stop before it gets to the pump…………..???
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Its connected. It looks like it might have a little kink too.
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You have to bleed a ton of oil to get rid of a little air. You'll be there all day. A tiger loop is both a bandaid and a solution.
Miss Hall's School service mechanic, greenhouse manager, teacher, dog walker and designated driver
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Yes both connect into the pump, the one on the bottom is just hard to see in the photo.
Line comes out of bottom of the tank in the garage, goes through a filter then up to the ceiling and over to the boiler closet.
The white stuff on the floor by the line is a tiny bit of what the tech used to absorb a bit of oil that went on the floor.
So it seems the tiger loop may be the best solution or “band aid” to the issue? I’m afraid I will spend more than it costs to get that installed having other techs come out and attempt troubleshooting the issue. Hourly rates add up FAST!0 -
Sadly, you are probably correct. None of them have a clue how to properly look for and find the very tiny air leak you have in the piping.
Four additional questions:
- What is the height from the bottom of the tank to the burner?
- What is the horizontal distance from the tank to the burner?
- What is the model of the fuel pump?
- What is the OD of the copper tubing………..either 3/8 or 1/2?
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We called it a Cheater Loop. It's a Tiger Loop without eliminating any air, just moves the air around to buy time. Very difficult to bleed the air out because it keeps moving out to the return line and cycles around again. Those lines look kinked at the pump. Replace with 2 flex lines to Tiger Loop.
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- The bottom of the tank and the burner are very close in height within a few inches difference.
- roughly 25 ft, going about 8ft up and then back down
- I’m attaching a photo of the pump. Looks like Suntec A2VA-7116.
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The tiger loop would replace that with two braided steel lines according to the quote I have.
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The bottom of the tank and the burner are very close in height within a few inches difference.
roughly 25 ft, going about 8ft up and then back down
I’m attaching a photo of the pump. Looks like Suntec A2VA-7116.
1/2
Good. Just checking if you are close to the max capability of the pump. You're nowhere near it.
What I would do at this point (and you can do it yourself) is to get a decent sized container and open the bleeder while the burner is running and bleed off at least three gallons of oil through the bleeder. If you have a small jumper wire with alligator clips, you can keep the burner running during this process by putting the clips on the two terminals that are currently occupied by the cad cell………….they are typically yellow……………….AFTER the burner starts. With the jumper in place the burner will run indefinitely despite the fact that it has no flame (once you open the bleeder, the pressure to the nozzle is gone).
Get a clear nylon hose and run into a five gallon empty water bottle.
I'm real curious if the problem goes away TEMPORARILY. It will be back.
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Well as an update - I bit the bullet and paid them to install a tiger loop yesterday hoping I wouldn't have to
worry about this issue anymore…wrong! Somehow its worse? at least just as bad. It does seem like now in the moments where it sounds like combustion pauses (air i'm assuming) are longer and somewhat more frequent. It will also sometimes puff a tiny bit of smoke out the flu when it's flapping during an incident which causes the nearby area to smell like fuel oil. Also when I got home from work today there was a pretty small and thin bit of oil below the burner motor…not sure where it came from as I couldn't detect a source. It has since dried up, but needless to say they are sending out a tech AGAIN (for free supposedly) on Friday to do who knows what.
HOW can there still seemingly be air in the line with a tiger loop? It makes no sense to me. I can see the oil foaming away inside the tigerloop as it runs.
EDIT: just now watched it fire up, immediately pause, then continue for a few and then pause/sputter 4-6 times, letting out several puffs from the flu damper. There is a lot of foam in the tiger loop as it runs (not sure if that indicates anything or not). see attached photo.
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A Tiger Loop is a dandy gadget. There is a definite limit to how much disaster a bandaid can cover up. What you haven't found is the air leak — and it looks as though you may, in fact, have added at least one more.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England1 -
The whole discussion is a bit rediculous.
A lot of issues with oil lines could be resolved easily by making 3 corrections.
- Learn how to make flares and connect tubing and fittings so it is 100% tight
- I find it comical that most are so quick to condem two pipe systems, in fact the op states that it was originally a two pipe system.
- Stop putting band aids on like a Tiger Loop.
There is only 1 legit use for a Tiger Loop and that is using one with an outside tank to help warm up the oil.
The most common reason Tiger Loops are installed is the installers cant take the time to connect oil lines properly.
Somehow we made burners run dependably for 80 years before Tiger Loops were invented. There is nothing wrong with a two pipe system.
I am tired of all the "return lines leak" myth
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I think all of you are missing it.
If it’s stuttering, then it needs a speech therapist!
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
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Foam in the TL means air in the fuel line.
Understand that if the fuel line is in a vacuum it will leak air in and you may not see any air leak out.
Find someone who can flare tubing.
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It's pretty simple.
If the oil can't get from the tank to the burner the burner will not run.
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HOW can there still seemingly be air in the line with a tiger loop? It makes no sense to me. I can see the oil foaming away inside the tigerloop as it runs.
Generally answered above by ED. The Tiger Loop is not a magical device to eliminate every molecule of air that enters between the tank and the burner. It has a limit. It appears that you have exceeded the limit and MUST find the leak in one of the flares. It's not an easy task and no technician wants to spend the time to do it ………..ergo the Tiger Loop. Sadly, you have observed that even this unit, promogulated to fix suction line leaks, has a limit.
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Without disagreeing with one particular comment, I agree that there is a significant vacuum (air) leak in the supply line between the oil level in the tank and the Tiger loop, period! Repair/replace those components as needed.
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"HOW can there still seemingly be air in the line with a tiger loop? It makes no sense to me. I can see the oil foaming away inside the tigerloop as it runs."
Maybe there's also an air leak between the Tigerloop and the burner…
Did anyone turn all those flare fittings a quarter turn or so?
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Hey, sorry, I just assumed that the Tiger Loop to burner piping was properly installed! My bad! If you see foaming inside the Tiger Loop, you are pulling in air. Has anyone checked the fuel pump shaft seal? If you had a competent technician, we would not be having this conversation, and your burner would be operating properly.
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