Zero NOx is the goal to reach for continued gas burning

Teemok

My well meaning area air quality regulators have set the gate of zero Nitrogen Oxide emissions to sell a gas boiler or furnace. It looks to be an effective ban as there is currently no such zero NOx tech. There are ultra low NOx burners that manage sub 5 ppm but not zero. I don’t see how many commercial hot water and heating needs can ever be met without burning gas. My CA C-4 license looks to be dead ended. Sure, I’ll likely die fixing gas burning boilers but it is a diminishing market.

Insert grumbling here:___________

Not burning hydro carbons is obviously the ideal but there will be a nessesary transition phase. Also, there are many process heating tasks needed to make the coming green tech contraptions. They need to be cleaned up if we have any real shot at correction and good long term stewardship. If all the regulation efforts are futile in the long term, there’s at least purpose provided and money to be made while we are alive fooling ourselves.

I know constrains bring creative solutions. Urea and catalytics can convert the 9ppm of existing burners or the sub 5ppm of duplex tech burners. I’m betting there’s other clever ideas to come. Mixtures of hydrogen peroxide and Sodium Hydroxide scrubbing is a thing. What works out as the viable option is the question. Regulations create markets. NOx sucks. How to build the the best zero NOx emission boiler is a very good question. A viable answer has the potential to make some money.

My first thought is to get rid of flame modulation. Building for a stable cool burning flame that produces the least NOx possible becomes more important than all other features. Like the Atkinson cycle with the ICE. Simplicity can aid precision control. Handling the tiny amount of NOx produced by a very clean burn becomes easier.

Jamie Hall

It's kind of sad, @Teemok , when the laws of chemistry and physics get in the way of the dreams of uneducated folk, isn't it? If you burn anything in air — hydrocarbon fuel, coal, biomass, hydrogen, doesn't matter — you will get some nitrogen oxides. The nitrogen is there, heat it in the presence of oxygen and hey presto, there you are.

Yes, there are technologies to reduce the nitrogen oxides from combustion. They work, up to a point, most of the time. Ask any trucker his or her opinion of them… since nature is a ****, though, even the best of them can't get to zero.

Teemok

I learned some about what causes NOx. It’s not that hard to get to very small numbers in a burner. The internal combustion engine is another animal. Catalysts work well enough it seems. My understanding is Natural gas burning and all auto emissions are responsible for about the same amount of NOx (more commonly known as smog) I’m well aware it’s a moving goal post. If anyone manages to create a zero NOx gas burner system, the CO2 will be the next reason to regulate. There’s lots of toxics we do. We love comfort now and pay later. No one wants to pay later. Many of the young don’t think there will be a later. Denial is a very popular favorite and friendly lies are much preferred over anything approaching truth. Humans don’t do well with long term anything. F around and find out seems to be the zeitgeist. So it goes. I’ll try to make my money the best way I can. Right now that’s making as little smog as possible while still burning. I see that my trade is likely to change if not be completely transformed. I’m happy to change when my path is clear. It will all need to be installed, maintained, diagnosed and repaired. Horse shoes, pistons, duplex burners with cats or inverter driven compressors. Regulations spur creativity and black markets. Choose a path. If our mythical “leaders” decide that burning is best, then we’ll keep on burning and see how that goes. My opinion counts for nothing. Admittedly, I do enjoy a bit of I’m so sad, I can’t believe that the leopards ate my face.

delcrossv

We have a long way to go to get back up to the 1000ppm of atmospheric CO2 that appears to be the geologic average . 😉

Teemok

The geologic CO2 average has little to do with the Goldilocks stability of the last and most important 10,000 years. Most of what we rely on for survival is due to systems based on conditions within the Holocene window. Expecting an agricultural industry to feed us all and have a 3% growth rate while experiencing the geologic CO2 average is very poor logic. But I expect you jest.

delcrossv

Not too much jesting. Plants grow better with higher CO2 -ask any greenhouse owner. And as for Holocene stability, we are in a rather small interglacial period. Way less than 100k years ago, where i live was covered with ice.

YMMV.

Jamie Hall

I admit to having a rather different perspective on all this… having some background in geology and climate and all that… and my current occupation having a different view on time… but…

For what it's worth, the human version of the great ape lineage has been around in identifiable form for perhaps the last 100,000 years. The earth has been around in much the present form for the last billion or two years. For humans to think that we have much hope of making a long term — say million year or so perspective — impact on the earth is just plain silly. The modern conceit that humans are the pinnacle of development, and that we are somehow all-powerful is one of the very worst developments of the last slightly more than 250 years of philosophy…

I'd better stop before this turns into a sermon.

Teemok

100k years ago, not much was around for humanity to exist the way it does. Only the rather small interglacial period has provided that incredible explosion (edit: of humans. The ) inter dependent systems and complexity of life ( edit: set the bountiful stage for us) Many think the world is flat or are just waiting for the results of a pie in the sky test. It renders any attempts at logic pointless. The unintended consequences a 1000 ppm CO2 greenhouse that you’re trapped in might not be all that fun. I could be wrong, it might be just great. But hey, we will surely both be long gone. There’s no real point in a lot of speculation. I’m betting the course is set and nothing done at helm or with the deck chairs is gonna change the heading of this titanic. Welcome to the Anthropocene. I hope we humans are half as clever as we think we are.

Teemok

Seeking the cleanest burn possible shouldn’t be a trigger. The “Possible” seems to continuously reveal itself. Poor priorities tend to sort themselves out. Zero NOx natural gas burns may be well within our capabilities at low cost. 2029 isn’t that far off so I suppose I’ll find out how it plays out short term around here. My bet is we will be burning with some tiny NOx tech for as long as we can keep the gas supply industry functioning.

Teemok

I don’t think anyone thinks human activity will do much when the time scale is in the billions of years. We are a blip. 9 billion of us doing stupid human stuff can most certainly take some things out of balance. It doesn’t take that high of an IQ to see what’s changing if you’re genuinely taking stock. Does that mean the end of the laws of nature or the world? Heck no. It will all go on. Just differently and indifferently regarding us.

clammy

just one more way to get off any fossil fuel so they sit in the driver's seat then do what ever they desire to the electric rates . I recently saw a article in a local jersey town news airing such nonsense babble . They state all the money that is going to be set free for all who wish to be forced into it . What i really enjoy is how those w 2 to 3 million dollar mansions will switch to electric ? i guess we all will be paying for there 1000 amp services being they already have a 600 amp and over tapped and running on gas . I really love it will be grand to see the electric heat pump air to water guys try and sell air to water heat pump for a home where all the ducts are in unconditioned space and all the real money was spent on kitchen master bath and lets not forget the famous i got money nj paver driveways for all to see but remember the heat and ac system where bottom of the line installs because no one will ever see so what does it matter until now . ,good luck and good grief when they get there electric bill.

just wondering i guess it will be 100 amp electric viking stove lol not wheres the line?

I find it insane that the drive to get off natural gas and electricity everything while our national electric grid is ancient and trash losing a large share to transmission lose and what is anyone to do once they control your life breath and brown you out ? rub two sticks together for heat .

A true cluster mess of pooh w greed at its base . Put not your trust where rust and corruption lay and sleep . on another note the N o caused by combustion are power plants free of these emissions ? please i guess only residential equipment are the only appliances that produce ?

Might as well put blinders on and start being led to the slaughter simply amazing .At least the powers to be will use our money to put forward there nonsense only to charge us even more ,How about ya use some of our free money to upgrade and improve power production and distribution in this country . Truth be asked in any of our lifetimes has any real major improvement in power production or distribution been accomplished aside from research and research papers that some ph d in a government office has breezed over but being there no $ in it for them or there friends it brushed to the side . I know the high tension transmission lines behind my home have seen zip for the 40 years i have lived her .I guess the upgrade is done w f magic when no bodies looking ,a doug henning act

I 'll end w this . I been always asked about my view on ufo 's and aliens from out of space and my reply is this if there where beings from a distant planet w intelligence that it would take this planet 100.000.000's of year to gather, why would they lend a hand to some beings which put there trust in a made believe objects of non value(money) while they are stuck in the lowest form of human expression hate ,prejudice the trap of desire and materialists possessions while inflicting pain and suffering to our own species forget about a pecking order . This is what is wrong one group uses against the masses to separate a species remember genghis khan to win you must divide and conquer ,give it a minute to sink in and possibly you will realize what is going on w all the separate groups dem libs trans gay what ever it s all labels all bull stuck in a trap of perception. Naming groups w label only follow what ghanis did to be victorious. History is funny when ya dont school anybody bout it you can repeat it and it all seems new ,old wool new seat of eyes to pull it over gotta love monkey nature of humans where's koko when ya need her?

peace and good luck clammy

fire away

Jamie Hall

Hey @clammy ! You sound like me!

Teemok

@clammy I do appreciate a genuine point of view and I agree with some of your points. It’s a mess and may have always been nothing more than that waiting to bloom. I think Mr. Khan’s MO was, join my empire or die right now and he didn’t care what or how you believed as long as you were loyal. Divide and conquer is first found in the English language in the 1600’s and is attributed to Kings ruling machinations ( divine autocracy doesn’t just work on its own ) maybe Louis XI.
@jammie Hall The undisputed global super predator: “ I ain’t done noth’n of no consequence”

This chart is old news. 1952 is the agreed on start of the new human driven time. Hydro-carbon man! No shame or blame. It’s just what we do. We are a bit like the Hollywood rich kid who has a party that gets out of control and wrecks the house. What was he to do? Poor rich kid.

Jamie Hall

Oh I'm not a denier — never have been. I do think mankind could have made much better choices, starting around 1979 or even earlier, but what's done is done. My point of view is that in the overall scope of things, mankind is a very trivial and insignificant blip. In a few weeks here I will be intoning "remember, from dust you came, and to dust you shall return".

Teemok

The idea that electrification is somehow getting us over a barrel is funny. We are already over a terrible barrel. If you burn trash great but the wood suppliers aren’t given it away, never were and never will. At least some of us can generate electricity via the sun with a panel for a spell. That’s some autonomy as far as I can tell. No it’s not ideal but none of this ever was. Hydrocarbon generation via the sun is a long and untenable process.
In other energy news the Chinese have just managed a relatively long fusion run and are suspected of being in the middle of the construction of a large new reactor. Oh baby, I hope we find something really good while we are busy drilling.

Teemok

@Jammie Hall Using the ship in a storm metaphor: the difference between “We are in Gods hands” and “ None of this means anything” is very small to me. There’s a healthy natural human inclination to do what keeps the bow into the wind and water out of the hull. Sailors who are critics of the efforts or work counter are often tossed overboard for expedience of survival. Cruel but effective. Despite heart felt predictions of doom some are willing to bail hard and others are not. Being truly invested in the quality of the future is increasingly rare. The tree that you will never taste the fruit of is a rarer project. End game strategy, the embracing of helplessness and the adoption of fantasies will only shorten our blip if not be the ultimate cause of our decline.

delcrossv

As long as we're posting visuals…

Teemok

The topic of the possibility being able to eliminate the production of NOx for natural gas burning sure drifts doesn’t it. It’s literally a way to extend burning with the least negatives possible. Why is that controversial at all? “ Don’t want to be told what to do! “ The year 1952 saw thousands die in London from smog fog and that was not an isolated event. Imagine trying to clean up a trash pile and being criticized for attacking an honored way of life. The ultra low NOx burner tech was first developed and employed for larger burners. The tech involves a longer premix and a small stable flame on a ceramic secondary burner surface. Big damn deal. Many may not have any experience of living in a populated area with a thick smog haze. It’s nothing to be a champion for. Even when you can’t see a haze it’s still there killing things. I’d expect that the coal rollers would celebrate the poisonous cloud till they got sick and might change their tune. Maybe they wouldn’t. Maybe they would breathe deeply and righteously and die of willful “mysteries”.

Teemok

@delcrossv 😄you posted a bunch of text as a visual. We can all find what we need. Especially in the Radiation Safety Journal. Maybe there’s some cutting edge valid knowledge in that study. I will leave that for smarter people to determine. You do know that carbon in the atmosphere, for whatever reason, is only one thing involved in the Anthropocene? My OP was about NOx. If you look hard enough you might find a credential voice who holds the alt-truth that NOx is really great for living things and is not a greenhouse component at all.

Jamie Hall

Let's not argue, folks. There is an underlying point, however, which is being missed: generating fear amongst inevitably poorly informed people is not about creating beneficial change, it is about gaining power. It doesn't really matter what the bogeyman is — at the moment it is climate change, but there have been others and down the road there will be others. I have written a couple of sermons on this, but this is not the place for them.

delcrossv

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1841337#Comment_1841337

This.

QFT

Teemok

We can frame the mechanics message that your front brake pads are nearly completely worn out as a shill message from the bake lining industry or the overreach of unnecessary safety concerns. Fact is, if you do nothing, you’re likely to hurt yourself or others.

One man’s bogeyman is another’s cold hard fact. The toxicity of smog is not fictitious. Ignorance says how do I know smog is bad.? How do I know if NOX is even real? I can’t see it after all. The fact that some elements tend to be greenhouse gasses is not mythical or even up for debate. The genuine generation of fear for power grabbing is about the most popular thing going right now. It’s only rivaled by the 1930’s. Just because a wolf is at your throat doesn’t mean your house isn’t on fire. It’s not fear mongering if both are true. Valid warnings from the world’s smartest people being seen as an annoying disturbance of the peace or just clever machiavellian power grabs might be a very big mistake. Why it doesn’t really matter to us? Because we think we will all be dead when the find out part of F-ing around comes to pass. We have created long term problems we are biologically incapable seeing to their end. Is that true? Not if you believe in Disney. Any evidence to that awful point is easily denied or misattributed to scapegoats. We live in a culture almost entirely dependent on science and yet most can’t define the term, never mind valve it’s process or guidance. What a state.