What I think
Seems like in a lot of posts recently I notice a common theme or maybe it's just me.
Customer calls for service and the "Tech" shows up. I use that term loosely.
He looks at the boiler/furnace/air conditioner/heat pump/water heater and says:
"You need a new one"
and then leaves the job
It's no wonder that homeowners hate contractors. Can't blame them
Comments
-
So true, it seems like more of the younger generations don't have the interest in learning actual troubleshooting and repair skills, its not just in HVAC industry. The educational system in this country isn't helping much either.
Also a contractor probably makes more profit on a new install, so where is the motivation to repair. Also technology and engineering is making things more throwaway.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
I always held that the cost to replace an appliance ie: furnace, boiler, etc would rarely save the customer money even when you included the energy efficiency increase of the new unit. Putting that same amount of money in a savings account would usually provide a better return for the money that would have been spent on the new unit. Sometimes however, a replacement unit is called for when replacement parts are no longer available or that the unit no longer meets certain codes that are in place and regulated by a state or federal licensed inspector. Also, if there is a total system upgrade, then the old existing unit may not work well with the upgraded system.
Before I retired, I was amazed by how little training most of the service techs had and that they were instructed to change parts instead of "trouble shooting" the problem. I considered most of them parts changers instead of system fixers. You learn quickly how to fix a problem on a night call, when you are in the middle of nowhere, at midnight, with the outside temperature below freezing, and the building is about to experience a system freeze-up.
Yes, it was always easier to recommend a unit replacement than to actually fix the problem. You are considered a Service Tech; Be one.
1 -
There was a post recently where a homeowner called for help with a boiler installed in 2023. The tech told him to replace it and then charged him for the service call!
I've seen posts on the HVAC reddit that the big private equity owned companies are incentivizing this behavior by paying commissions to techs that sell new installs. It's not surprising that an undertrained and overworked tech is going to try to sell a new system when it's in their financial interest.
It's a terrible long term business strategy, but they don't care. With private equity, they're trying to juice the company books quickly, and sell it off at a big profit.
1 -
It's a terrible long term business strategy, but they don't care. With private equity, they're trying to juice the company books quickly, and sell it off at a big profit.
I disagree. Scamming the public in all aspects of life is a good business strategy, especially when done with "facts" where the customer is convinced of the new product. I would hazard a guess that not more than 10% of the public would have a conclusion of being scammed. The people we see on HH are a tiny fraction of what is going on in the world.
Once scam after another without ANY CONSEQUENCES to the scammer.
Note that said companies have no ethics or integrity but if you look at the big picture in the USA today, these two character traits are basically gone in most places. The almighty dollar is all that matters. It begins at the top.
2 -
I've been a repairing /diagnostic tech for decades regardless of who I worked for. The modern company modus operendi puts a proper tech continuously in the conflict between good ethics and the maximum profit seeking of the company. Technical and diagnostic skills are valued well bellow a predatory company loyalty. Many companies are little more than wealth extraction rackets in service costumes. The managers are Fagin like and the top techs Art-full Dodgers in one form or another. I found myself forced into a 50% warranty role, cleaning up the repeated messes created by our own operations with no means of correcting the root causes of the problems.
I used to be more sure that I could run profitable company on a foundation of excellent diagnostic skills and honesty. Customers are more and more unfamiliar with the repair ethic and sometime react suspiciously to it. What's this guys angle, they ask themselves. They are somewhat convinced the flashy spoils of exploitation are real signs of excellence. Like the jewelry of the con man. The sad truth is, replacement, if done well, is often a better option for the customer than dealing with the poor results and multiple invoices of crap techs. Lowered customer expectations and the normalization of ill feeds the cycle to lower places. The more people move around the less value a good reputation has. I wounder how long before the venture capital firms just own their own techs to service their ownership of the bulk of the housing market.
1 -
Agree. In larger companies, service calls are opportunity to sell. Repair is secondary unless a warranty call.
https://www.signpost.com/blog/turn-service-calls-into-sales-8-tips/0 -
Shady companies wouldn't be able to make it if consumers didn't buy what they were selling.
Thinking just isn't very popular right now.
2 -
I'm not a heating pro, just a homeowner/engineer who likes to build and fix things. I was born in 1964, and both my parents went through the Great Depression as children. We weren't poor growing up, but their "waste not, want not" ethos from living through times of scarcity got ingrained in me.
So I hate seeing good equipment thrown in the trash because something minor is wrong with it. I've lost count of how many lawn mowers, weed whackers, snow blowers, etc I've taken from curbside trash piles and fixed, with only minor repairs needed to make them run.
@Teemok said "Many companies are little more than wealth extraction rackets in service costumes." Last year I tried to get pricing for converting our oil burners to gas burners. One such "service" company sent a plumber out at my request to price out installing about 30 feet of gas line from our existing gas meter to the boilers. Since we can't quote prices here, I'll just say that his price quote was about half of what you'd pay for a new car. For 30 feet of gas line that would take him maybe a day to run.
I didn't want to insult him, as he was probably only doing what his boss told him to do. So I thanked him and told him I'd pass his quote on to the other condo owners for review. But these guys obviously had a business model that was basically "quote a ridiculously high price and hope that someone is dumb or desperate enough to bite." And they must be getting enough customers to pay those ridiculous prices, or they wouldn't be doing it.
So I feel for customers who aren't knowledgeable enough to sort out the shysters and crooks from the guys who will do a good job at a reasonable price. It's a war zone out there.
2 -
We talk about this all the time. It's a sign of a desperate, declining middle class faced with rampant inflation.
0 -
I've written here before about how private equity firms are buying up family-owned HVAC shops all over the country. Their business model is to get the acquired company to sharpen their business practices and increase profits. Part of that is telling their techs not to work on equipment more that X years old, where X is around seven years.
0 -
Thinking by 70% of the population……………….UNABLE. They get scammed constantly!!
How many of them buy that 500W heater that will heat an entire apartment in 90 seconds? The best scammer ever!! 90 day guarantee on this unit…………just send it back…………to France………..with trackable shipping!!!
How many of them get taken for tens of thousands of dollars in a telephone scam that builds trust over a couple of months and then their life savings is gone? Usually targets the elderly.
How many get taken by the companies who claim to sell or terminate a time share for $300?
The scamming business is highly profitable with plenty of "marks".
2 -
I don't know. I hear this complaint all the time. I think a lot of the blame should fall on the manufacturers. I've been out of the service tech world for a few years now but I ran into a lot of things that were just meant to be thrown away. Unservicable or so difficult to service as to make the cost uneconomical. When a display screen fails we are giving the choice to replace the whole module for x dollars or source a screen for 2xX. A heat exchanger buried behind inducers, controls, wiring harness and gas valves. The service techs I'v run into where I live seem to really want to solve problems.
I got out of it at the time when we had to carried a big book produced by some outside company dictating the cost of every part or service. I get it, It's sometime really hard to make money on service. Extra hard when so many things are not meant to be serviced.
Miss Hall's School service mechanic, greenhouse manager, teacher, dog walker and designated driver
0 -
Touch that 30 year old boiler and you own it. The call backs and the liability.
A competent tech should offer a few options,
Good replace just the broken part, as long as the system is safe and code compliant
Better upgrades- move the expansion tank, correct the wrong closely spaced tee, correct the venting for example
Replace newer more efficient technology with 10 year manufacturers warranty
Keeping in mind that tech needs constant ongoing training to keep up with new technology. Somebody needs to pay for that. That tech labor & training cost is in a 1 hr service call, or a multi day replacement.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream
1 -
I hear the don't touch it or you'll own it thing all the time. That's not really the typical legal case. I get that properly handling old equipment repair takes effort with details. If you don't inform the customer of risks in writing and you perform work that was not agreed to and then you break something or make it worse then you are liable. If you don't have the ability to accurately verify if the equipment is safe or not, then do not touch it. If you have no idea what could go wrong and can't clearly communicate verbally and in writing, then, do not touch it. These hurdles are why repairs are not being offered.
The skills needed to provide the "Good" or "Better" options are more and more rare. What I see is young "techs" that can only offer "Replace" (not "Best" like HD?) The unqualified service call responders are just feeders for a predator sales manager and a single semi-skilled, over worked, cookie cutter, installer. The feeders know enough to ID a few things and to confidently toss out large numbers. The aprovals go to and the semi-skilled installer who gets it right enough of the time that it pays for when he doesn't. My old boss called it "throwing darts". They're not all bullseyes, but the close hits pay for problems and inefficiencies caused by the lack of skills. The turn over of the call responders is high but who cares. It doesn't take long to find a new fresh faced hungry shill. When you find a good one, cut them in with higher commission. Of course you must keep the semi-skilled installer happy. You need someone in the company that can fix the problems and smooth failures over or scare people off. Often but not necessarily, the owner. It's a model that works and there's little intention of training anyone to a very high level of competence. The requirements for technical training is: presentable, slightly higher than average IQ, flexible ethics and above all company loyalty. Developing higher skill levels just creates higher wages or is training your next competitor. Obviously all companies are not just like this but there's certainly a trend of many variations towards the like.
0 -
A local competitor/ peer of mine screwed up a draft damper diagnosis on a boiler that his grandfather installed at the end of his long carrier. He left the customer with no and intermittent heat, days of changing other parts and was never able to fix it. I got called to verify his replacement price against mine. I was stunned when the customer was completely uninterested in fixing it. The quality and condition of the existing equipment was disregarded. My years of skills and knowledge meant nothing to him. He went with the the guy who couldn't fix it anyway. Why? He was sold on the need for replacement, Grandpas last name and a flashy truck is my best guess. Customer's are not always rational and some enjoy being lied to because it fits with their understandings. Oh! You should definitively replace it. A 20 year old cast iron Hydrotherm? Bla bla bla, questionable reliability, bla bla, new is much higher efficiency! I tried to offer a counter with the facts of a high temperature load. He called me back to re-question me about his promised efficiency gains. He was obviously confused by my competitors nonsense responds his questions my info spawned. Despite the fact that he is an accomplished CFO, thermodynamics and good logic proved to be irrelevant.
0 -
"thermodynamics and good logic proved to be irrelevant."
QFT
1 -
Why whenever a steamer gets installed totally wrong all of a sudden no one owns it?
But they install a new pilot and in that case they own it?
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
2 -
Maybe the pendulum will swing back but I doubt it. When I think of the twists and turns,
I would go through to fix something…..I don't know everything has changed.
Equipment doesn't last as long
Parts become unavailable (sometimes)
No shops in most high schools or junior highs
The "I want it fast" mind set"…..just google the answer
If it's over 5 years old it is junk.
The lack of parts sometimes is aggravating.
few weeks back our electric dryer quit. I don't even know the age but its over 16 years old. I was just going to replace it but then thought what the hell I will take a look.
Bad thing is its stuffed in a closet so to get into the back of it I have to disconnect and take out the washing machine.
Dryer is a Whirlpool. The high limit (fusible one time) was open. Of course this shouldn't trip unless the operating thermostat is defective.
Went online and the exact parts were still available so ordered those $60 and it lived for now. The operating stat checked ok but had some dryer lint stuck to it. Replace it and the fusible link.
I think the MFGs should be required to have replacement parts available for a certain number of years 15-20??
I taught at the union hall for 6 years or so. I liked it but gave it up. As time went on the students didn't seem to care about learning anything they want to google the answers.
They paid good to teach so it wasn't the money. But I would have to plan my day on the nights I taught to be able to get to the hall on time. Not easy when working out of town. Have material ready to teach and make copies etc it takes some effort on my part. Then go in and most of them (75%) don't want to be there and they have been working all day (I get it we all went through it) so I lost interest. Too bad.
I got into it with them one night about replacing motor bearings. They said "why would you ever do something like that get a new motor"
I explained If you have a 75 hp motor on a roof for a pump or water tower or air handler or something the cost of a crane and the extra labor could be $5000-$10,000 + the motor.
For 2 guys a day and the cost of the bearings you could change them on the roof.
But they told me the contractors they work for would never do that.
Parts changers that is all we have now
1 -
I think that is why I am not a multi-millionaire. I used to just fix stuff. I only recommend replacement of equipment when absolutely necessary. All those franchise contractors are making big bucks with their salesman technicians making big commissions on new equipment sales
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
2 -
more and more the Walmart mentality is taking over.
cheap, cheaper, cheapest.
add to that NO training in high schools for ANYTHING Mechanical.
insurance, OSHA, fire codes cutting into profits.
it’s harder and harder to be an Honest Service Provider.2 -
whirlpool has made that dryer design since the mid 60's. wear parts for it are readily available. you can keep repairing them more or less forever. you can get the same parts without the fsp logo for a lot less. the thermal fuse could be a blocked vent or i suppose the overcurrent from a grounded element too. does it still dry as fast as it did when new?
0 -
The dark road leads back to the rational. As money gets harder to make and supply chains are broken and energy gets more and more expensive, fixing things becomes necessity rather than a choice. We (humans) will very rapidly highly value the ability to repair. The kids will desire to learn things that give them the ablity to fix things. It's a bit Mad Max but I have to find a light somewhere. Remember, this current condition of ours is historically highly unusual, despite how normalized it might feel. It doesn't take much to re-organize what's prioritized.
1 -
doesn’t it all comeback to lack of skilled labor. How does a 20 year old keep current with new technology while learning about gravity systems monoflow, 30 year old obsolete HW controls, etc.
Those knowing and willing to teach them leaving the industry, like recently retired Tim.
If you were starting out in the trades, hoping to make a career out of it, would you persue ancient piping technology or digital controls, computer control troubleshooting, A2Whp technology?
The old timers with the old system knowledge if they are still working don’t advertise , they are underground, word of mouth shops.
Probably why so many homeowner/ DIYers end up here., no one to call. Consumers go online to find techs, so if you are not current with using the web, good luck with the yellow pages.
Appliances, computers, boilers, etc built within the last 20 years are not intended to be serviceable, other than consumables, an opinion being an owner of all these devices.
You might be surprised how many customers really want new stuff, when offered the option.
My 2 year old washer broke down, after the young tech made 3 attempts changing the controls, reprogramming, blaming operator error, calling tech support, on the 4 attempt he brought along someone that looked like his grandad. He tipped the machine back and replaced a worn drive belt, in and out in 20 minutes. Will the youngster remember that, or go straight to the computer access porting in the next call?
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
The bulk of the youth I've seen filling unskilled service call positions aren't choosing to learn about current tech over the old tech. Some don't know the basics needed to conceptualize how old or new tech works. Basic physics, electrical theory, critical thinking, logic paths and they don't really need to because, the job (their bosses) don't require it. They are not being invested in. They are fake it till you make it, tossed into the fire, being used a props, wittingly or unwittingly. "You need a new one" works very well.
Some will learn on the job being confronted and coached and will become competent, maybe even above average. 1 in 10 show promise. I've helped a few reach higher levels. There's an out of high school apprentice of mine who currently maintains high tech systems for the company that makes the iridescent ink on your money.
0 -
LOL on the 2-year-old washer breaking down. In our 4-unit condo building, we have an old heavy-duty Amana (Maytag) washer and dryer, both 40 years old.
One of the other owners got a "deal" on a used LG front-loading washer and wanted to replace the Amana, so I said OK, we'll put the Amana in the corner and try out the new LG.
The "new" LG washer ran for a few weeks, then started banging. Needed new dampers under the drum. I replaced those with new. Then the electronic controls went out. Couldn't get a new board, and it was going to cost $200 to send the old board out for rebuild, so the washer would be out for at least a week. I said we have a perfectly good Amana sitting in the corner. Let's get rid of this LG junk and put back the Amana. So we did.
I have had to replace some 40-year-old worn out parts on both the washer and dryer, and grease the washer transmission, and now both of them run like new. I've told the other owners, when I leave, never get rid of those things. They're built like tanks, parts are cheap and easy to get, and they're dirt simple to fix. They'll run another 20 years if they can find someone like me who's willing to fix them.
I know your original point was about the difficulty of new guys learning both old and new tech, and I'm sure that's true. The value of learning on the old tech is that you begin with simple mechanical components and learn the principles that make them work. Then you have some basic understanding and can move on to advanced technology. But if you don't understand the basic principles to start with, you're never going to learn them by swapping control boards.
1 -
I have heard Speed Queen is the best.
@mattmia,
I usually take the vent pipe apart and clean it every 1 1/2-2 years. Some lint always gets past the lint screen.
So far so good. I ohmed out the heating element and it was withing spec. Who knows how long it will last. growing up my parents always bought Sears appliances. They had a good service dept and a lot of their stuff was made by Whirlpool and it lasted a long time.
I really blame the lack of trades especially in JH & SH schools. People growing up are not exposed to mechanical stuff any more.
This makes for a lack of technicians and a lack of customers who know anything mechanical and that makes them easy prey.
Generations of people who can barely put gas in their car much less air in the tires or check the oil
1 -
I'm reading a book now, "Reader, Come Home". The author tells how learning to read rewires our brain in very fundamental ways, and that the modern "digital" world is changing that, again at a fundamental level.
Scary to think that we're raising up kids who, not just don't think like us, but can't.
0 -
I doubt the current generation of installers are capable of reading a manual. Makes proper installation and service almost impossible. Most overpriced slam and go companies have at least one or two guys following installation guys around fixing their screwups. The residential crew at my workplace isnt much better. They wonder why i dont send my friends their way.
Commercial guys tend to pay a little more attention. Maybe the old mechanics throwing wrenches at the apprentices actually did some good after all. At my company, the guys who do start ups walk off the job if things arent wired right or installed properly. Only way the installers figure it out is of you cost them their profits and warranty allowance for every time they install wrong. $20k a unit sounds about right.
0 -
Things with mechanical or electromechanical or electronic or microprocessor controls all fundamentally works the same. If you have to put a lot of effort in to understanding how one manufacturer's system works you don't understand the basics.
I don't think you're going to get many people to sign up for night school while working all day when there are lots of jobs that don't require that. You need to fix that model.
You need to understand math and chemistry and physics but the middle/high shop class curriculum doesn't teach that. You need to figure out how to teach it to the people that don't understand it the way we've been teaching it for 100 years. And you need to find people willing to do it for less than the cost of living.
0 -
As long as customers are taught to "consume," are taught nothing mechanical and have access to easy credit, "technicians" will push the most costly option.
One reason many of the best in the industry have turned to servicing only commercial accounts.
0 -
@mattimia2
"for less than the cost of living"
This is the trillion dollar problem AI is working on "wages"
0 -
I think those "little details" that it gets wrong are 95% of the problem and it isn't going to be useful anytime soon in the same way self driving doesn't work in the conditions where you really need it.
0 -
used to be the farm kids learned all about keeping basic machinery working. Now John Deere has them locked out of working on their own equipment. Elon with his massive AI push will fix everything, no need to worry.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream
3 -
There are a lot of WW2 stories about "farm boy" ingenuity in fixing machinery. One of the best known involves the Sherman tanks fighting the Germans in the hedgerows of Normandy right after D-Day. The French fields were surrounded by tall berms of earth and hedges 6+ feet high. There were usually only one or two entrances to the fields, and the Germans were dug in inside the fields, covering the entrances with machine gun fire and/or 88's. So it was suicidal trying to enter one of those fields.
The hedgerows were too high for the Shermans to go over the top. One farm boy got the idea to weld up some scrap steel into a giant front-facing fork strong enough to plow straight through a hedgerow, and attach it to the front of a Sherman. He convinced his higher-ups to try it, and it worked. So the Army set up a field welding shop to build these things by the hundreds, from the steel I-beam obstacles that Rommel had planted along the beaches as anti-landing ship obstacles.
With these giant forks bolted to the fronts of the Shermans, they were able to plow right through a hedgerow and surprise the Germans on the other side, who had only been covering the entrances. That one "farm boy" invention allowed the Allies to finally push through Normandy and break out into clearer territory less favorable to the defenders. You can still see photos of the early days after D-Day, with Shermans equipped with those field-built forks driving through Normandy.
I love stories like that because it appeals to my sense of invention and ingenuity, and exemplifies the "can do" spirit of America. But I too worry that we're raising new generations who don't know how to work with their hands and fix things. It's a real problem.
0 -
Ha! Ha! Ha! You guys sound exactly like the WWII vets when they talked about me and the other newbies. There were some guys who offered help and shared their knowledge freely and some who held their cards close to their vest. I'm 60 now, reminiscing how useless the old guys thought the new guys were. Thanks for the memories!
1 -
My dad was a WW 2 tech sergeant he the ran a motor pool in Germany during the war. He had many great stories like that.
We had a basement full of German war pieces that made it back to the states via returning machinery🫣Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream1 -
Eventually the bottom line $$$$ must bottom out. This throw away society we have been creating is a slow step into failure.
2 -
My great uncle who was an engineer and a B17 captain who flew two tours. He thought I was knuckle head at 16 when I first met him. He was condescending , impatient and sharp tongued. He didn't give me much attention until I shocked him with my understandings and questions about aviation fuel, compression ratios, cam profiles and the signs and symptoms of different ignition timings. All stuff I got from Hot Rod magazines and my tinkerings with lawn mowers, mini bikes and old cars. After that he, was a fountain of info and thought the better of me. A rare and cherished generational connection.
0 -
We got what we asked for, everyday low prices. It started what in the 80’s maybe 70. Low cost low quality gave the consumer more buying power. It felt good. To buy even more low quality throw away junk. Which had to be built in countries with low wages.
The U.S. turned into a service economy. I doubt anyone of us would afford a 100% made in America appliance?Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream
3
Categories
- All Categories
- 86.5K THE MAIN WALL
- 3.1K A-C, Heat Pumps & Refrigeration
- 54 Biomass
- 423 Carbon Monoxide Awareness
- 96 Chimneys & Flues
- 2K Domestic Hot Water
- 5.5K Gas Heating
- 101 Geothermal
- 157 Indoor-Air Quality
- 3.5K Oil Heating
- 64 Pipe Deterioration
- 929 Plumbing
- 6.2K Radiant Heating
- 384 Solar
- 15.2K Strictly Steam
- 3.3K Thermostats and Controls
- 54 Water Quality
- 42 Industry Classes
- 48 Job Opportunities
- 17 Recall Announcements