Question About Header Pitch Flat Spot (one pipe steam system)

alexh · January 16

Good Morning,

I have a one pipe steam system that needs better insulation on all the headers. I had the asbestos removed a while back and replaced it with insufficient insulation. Before I wrap up all the pipes again, I want to address a minor pitch issue with a section of a header (or understand if i even need to do anything). I've checked the pitch with a level and have one spot that is completely flat (level) for a few feet. I would have fixed it already but everthing around it appears to have good pitch. If i raise the section before it, the section immediately outside of the boiler will be too flat, if i lower the section after it my wet return line will be too flat. The only way i figure it can be done right is to shorten the vertical condensate pipe before the wet return. I'm not sure if this is reasonable or something I can manage myself.

Can this all be avoided by feeding a boroscope camera into the flat spot of the header to see if any water is actually collecting at the bottom of the pipe? If not what would my best course of action be?

Thank you,

Alex

ethicalpaul · January 16

Don't worry about it. There's not enough water in a flat section of header to matter.

You don't even need to improve the insulation. You can improve it but it won't affect anything except put a little less heat in your basement.

alexh · January 16

Even if its bubble foil insulation? Something like this:

https://www.homedepot.com/pep/48-in-x-100-ft-Radiant-Barrier-Bubble-Aluminum-Foil-Reflective-Insulation-RBQP548100/329459695?g_store=&source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&pla&mtc=SHOPPING-CM-CML-GGL-D22-022_004_INSULATION-NA-NA-NA-PMAX-5718363-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NEW-Pmax&cm_mmc=SHOPPING-CM-CML-GGL-D22-022_004_INSULATION-NA-NA-NA-PMAX-5718363-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NEW-Pmax-19116999312--&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiA-aK8BhCDARIsAL_-H9lSFRxVBp04YwuiSArQE1nEqS40ZGuxNgJ4R8o_1adxY0rMsXBeADUaAmrUEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

ethicalpaul · January 16

Even if it is no insulation.

alexh · January 16

Thanks Paul, would you say insulation has no significant benefit beyond reducing how much fuel is used? In other words, my system should be able to function quietly and properly without it?

ethicalpaul · January 16

it reduces the fuel used if you feel the heat it puts into the basement is wasted.

But yes, it won't change the operation of your system. Fair warning that others will disagree with me, but I have seen it and can't unsee it.

There is condensate water formed in the header every time the boiler starts up. Yes when the header is cool there is more (which by the way still happens even with insulation), but in any case, it's not very much and the header can deal with it (even severely malformed header piping). As soon as the header is steam hot there is no flowing condensate.

This video wasn't recorded for this purpose, but it does show you want is in your near boiler piping when the boiler is firing

The only way yours looks different is if your boiler is surging (you can see my other videos for that), and if that's the case, that's a separate problem that is not going to be affected by insulation.

EBEBRATT-Ed · January 16

Header pitch is something I just laugh at. For the average residential boiler with a 2' header no pitch is required. In fact

I did commercial boilers with 4"-8" pipe and I never saw a pitched header even on huge jobs.

If you tell a pipefitter to pitch a header they will just laugh. Not needed.

delcrossv · January 16

Just to make sure we're on the same page: @alexh What you call a header is the horizontal pipe above the boiler that the supplies from the boiler feed and then has risers that connect to your main(s) that go off to the various radiators?

alexh · January 16

I apologize guys, I think i used the wrong term. I'm not talking about the steam pipes near the boiler, but rather the long steam supply lines that have branches to each radiator. The steam main perhaps?

delcrossv · January 16

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1835359#Comment_1835359

Correct. Those would be the mains.

delcrossv · January 16

@alexh Do you get banging associated with the main with the flat spot? Water coming off the radiator connected near the flat spot? No heat off radiators on that main?

If not, it's not a problem.

alexh · January 16

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1835361#Comment_1835361

The flat spot is close to the end of the main. On the other side of it are my 1st and 2nd floor bathroom rads which don't get as hot as i'd like. The only banging i get is on 2 of my radiators on the first floor which are not near this flat spot. They each seem to bang once as they are heating up.

delcrossv · January 16

Is there a vent on the end of the main? What vents do you have on the slow radiators?

Pictures of your boiler piping and the main in question would be helpful.

Neild5 · January 16

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1835344#Comment_1835344

I like how you pitched the piping!

Jamie Hall · January 16

Furthermore, the wet (low) return doesn't need any pitch — so if you could get a little pitch on the flat section by lowering that you'd be fine.

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1835207#Comment_1835207

Insulation won't make much difference in how much fuel you use anyway — the main benefit is reducing wet steam and getting the steam to your radiators faster and more evenly. Any heat lost into the basement keeps the first floor warmer, unless your basement is very draughty.

Question About Header Pitch Flat Spot (one pipe steam system)

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