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Steam boiler modernization

msharp
msharp Member Posts: 3

I have a home that was built in 1930 and utilizes a steam boiler and radiators. The boiler was replaced in 2011, but the piping is likely original. I bleed water from the boiler each week (I was told to do this by a company I used to service it once) and dirty, sludgey water comes out by the bucket-full. I recently had a leak in one of the pipes and got it patched — the company that did this for me said my pipes are likely disintegrating (thus the sludgey water) and I need to repipe the system. I'm guessing this will be pricey, and if I need to do a big project I want to make sure there isn't a better approach to modernizing the system. Should I be considering getting rid of the steam boiler system all-together? I want to do as little damage to the house (i.e. opening up walls) as possible, but also want to do things the right way if I'm going to spend the money.

Comments

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 24,984

    You certainly don't need to even think about getting rid of the steam system. Read on.

    It is quite possible, if you have wet returns (pipes down low, below the water line of the boiler) that you have leaks in them. It is very likely that they have some corrosion inside. Was your leak in one of these pipes?

    If so, replacing the wet returns would probably be a good idea — and shouldn't be that hard to do since so long as they stay below the water line of the boiler the actual routing of the pipes is not important. I would certainly replace any which are actually buried. The wet returns can be replaced in copper, which is easier for most modern tradespeople to handle.

    As to replacing the rest of the pipes… it's almost vanishingly rare for steam or dry return pipes to leak, although it does happen — usually at a threaded joint, usually on a dry return, and usually because there simply isn't enough pitch there for the pipe to drain completely. Again, repairing such a thing is not difficult — provided your plumber or steamfitter has some idea as to how to thread pipe.

    Thus for the rest of the system — which is the majority of it — there should be no need to replace any pipes (though they may need to be rehung to correct pitch problems).

    All that said, the condition of the boiler is your biggest concern. Does it leak? If not, simply having it properly serviced — cleaned and the burner properly adjusted with actual measuring instruments (you can't do it by eye) is all that should be needed.

    Now on blowdowns or "bleeding". It should not be necessary to drain water from the boiler once week. Or even once a month. Once per season is ample. You may, however, have a float type low water cutoff, and that should be blown down from time to time — once a week is fine, but a bit less won't hurt. Usually this involves no more than a gallon or so of water to clear the float chamber. In fact, you don't want to add more water than that — as fresh water will increase corrosion.

    Can you add more detail about where the leak was? And, while we are at it, how is the system performing? Reasonably even? Not much if any banging? If the leak has been patched, is it using water (it shouldn't). We can gladly help with all that and suggestions for other work — but only if needed.

    As I said at first, you don't need to replace all the pipes. You don't need to think about changing from steam to something else. Relax.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    delcrossvethicalpaulIntplm.
  • msharp
    msharp Member Posts: 3

    Thanks Jamie. None of my pipes are buried or below the water line of the boiler. The boiler is in the basement and the pipes I can see are all near the ceiling (and in soffits in the few rooms I've finished in my basement). The pipe with the leak was inside a soffit, so had to pull down the wet drywall to make the patch.

    I "bleed" the pipes weekly because if I don't the radiators clank loudly. When I "bleed" them they don't clank.

    Overall I'm happy with the system in terms of the heat it puts off in the house. I just don't want a situation where I have more leaks in the pipes that cause damage. I'm in Denver and I haven't found many companies who can work on steam boilers - the one I just used was suggesting the replacement of all the pipes - but I definitely would prefer not to.

  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 1,437

    Sounds like someone may be taking someone for a ride. 😉

    Replacing the steam system WILL involve significant demolition.

    That said, is the draining you were told to do flushing the low water cutoff? That's the only draining you should be doing regularly.

    What do you mean by "bleed the pipes "? They should be draining by themselves.

    Pictures of your piping, especially around the boiler would be instructive.

    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
    Intplm.CLamb
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,588

    Very rare for steam lines/condensate lines above the water line to leak or disintegrate

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 24,984

    A leak in a pipe above the water line is, as has been said, very rare. And there should be little, if any, banging. Oddly, both may be related to the same problem: a lack of pitch in some of the piping. Steam piping must be pitched — not very much, but some — so that the condensate which naturally forms can drain back to the boiler. I'm going to go out on a limb and bet that if you check the pitch of all the piping, you will find some which don't drain properly. This may be very hard to do with the pipes you have buried in the soffits.

    Where are you "bleeding" the pipes? Would you take a few pictures and post them so we can see what it is you are doing? I'm a little concerned that the "bleeding", if it is out in the piping somewhere and making the banging less, may indicate that something is amiss with the pitch of the piping — or even that someone may have gotten creative and moved or removed a pipe or vent which really way needed.

    Also, would you take a few pictures of the boiler and its controls, and also the piping in the vicinity of the boiler? Since you are in kind of a knowledge desert for steam boilers, it may be that there are some simple adjustments which could be made to make the whole thing work better.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,164

    How about a pic of your boiler and its near boiler piping .A system that bangs and radiators the clank is the sign of issue possibly with your near boiler piping ,lack of insulation on the steam mains and as others have stated lack of proper pitch . If your system is that shot the determination on repair or removal and update w a hot water system is really up to the pocket book ,either one will not be cheap . If you are really having a hard time finding ones w a real handle of a steam system then it may be time to update either one as stated is never cheap and is always a decent investment over time . If your boiler is piped correctly that would be a plus . As for constantly drain water and replacing w fresh is not improving anything how about if your service provider drains and washes out the boiler thus removing all of the build up of crap inside the boiler and also have your wet returns been flushed ever . Has anyone inspected the burners or flooded the boiler to be sure it does not have a hole in the block ,checked the pressuretrol cut in and cut out to ensure proper operation ? The few little items i have mentioned do have merit but if your service provider is not doing any of them well then you need a new service provider which will do what's required and clean the boiler flush returns and chk burners and controls for proper operation also adding a 0 to 3 psia gauge aside from the required gauge to have a clue as to if you are building pressure or just losing it . Does your system have a automatic feeder which shall add water when low and mask any leaks you may have . In closing if nothing has really been done to the system for ions like main and radiator vents replacement and updated,ensure that all radiator supply valves are not leaking and that the washer hasn't fallen off ,it happens and the mains are insulated and that the near boiler piping was properly installed if none of this has happened for the time you have lived there then it may be your time to bag the steam and update . i would suggest a hot water system and the use for panel radiators for heat emitters re using steam rads for hot water is not a good idea unless your contractor has time and u got plenty of money . For less maintenance use a cast iron boiler venting into a lined chimney have your contractor size the radiators for a average mean temp of 160 for the design day temps in your area . the installation of a outdoor reset control would be wise as would be piping primary secondary w provision for return water boiler protection . yes you could go w a wall hung condensing modulating boiler but yearly maintenance and there semi short lived life span in comparison to a cast iron boiler kinda makes them not ideal for everyone unless you dont mind yearly maintenance and a boiler that at best will give you 15 to 20 years at the best then go for a mod con and go low temp . Some have zero choice due to a lack of a chimney

    peace and good luck clammy

    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating

  • Intplm.
    Intplm. Member Posts: 2,217
    edited December 14

    Hmmm… @msharp when you bleed water out the banging stops?!

    The question is from where are you bleeding or draining this water from?… And then it stops but starts again?

    This tells me you have condensate from the steam gathering in the pipes and creating this noise. This might be an easy fix, and "shouldn't" be anything major. The condensate is normally going to be created as steam cools. When this happens the condensate should drain by itself without having to bleed it out.

    So, where are you bleeding the water from?

  • msharp
    msharp Member Posts: 3
    edited December 14

    here are pics of the boiler and pipes around it. Second to last photo is where I “bleed” or empty a few buckets full of water each week. Last pic is pipe in a soffit that got patched this week due to a leak.

  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,392

    The pipe needs replaced not just patched. It is likely a low spot if it leaked. The return piping below the water line of the boiler is likely clogged. Not a whole system repipe, just the wet parts of the return.

    Do you have an autofeeder?

    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
    delcrossv
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 24,984

    Or I wonder… did it rust through from the outside? Was it resting on that piece of wood I see sticking out?

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,392

    @Jamie Hall it is very common for the dry returns that have minimal pitch to leak like that. Especially since they are often not reamed. Puddles make holes after 100 years or so.

    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 24,984

    That's where one of Cedric's dry returns leaked… past tense. Fixed it!

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England