Feeling dum help with r89 and r19a relays
Ok been fighting relays .thought I had a bad wire changed relay from a old r19a to a r89 ran new 2 wire,newc2 wire thermostat. Pump run ok. Here's the dum part.the old 3 wire thermostat wires where bundled together .I was working on the wrong wires. So heres the prob now. The new r89 2 wire thermostat relay.i need to hook up to the old 3 wire thermostat.
So is this a old 10 series. Do just use the upper b&r and leave w off. Then connect b&r on the r89 tt ports. Ok next question on the old r19a relay 3 wire r b w . can I hookup my 2 wire thermostat as per print to w&b on relay. Had mess pumps not running pumps running wrong areas.getting a handle on it. Thanks everyone for your help .
Comments
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I think there is a honeywell book somewhere in the library that explains those systems. Are you controlling a 10 series valve or something, is that why you didn't just replace it with a modern control and thermostat?
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R19 relay is a series 10
R89 relay is a series 80
You can use a Series 80 thermostat to control a series 10 relay
You Can Not use a series 10 thermostat to operate a series 80 control
That is because the series 10 thermostats have a holding circuit that is designed to eliminate short cycling. The W to R contacts pull a lower voltage off of the control transformer from a mid point in the control transformer. That voltage is not enough to pull the relay in to cause the contacts to make. The W to B contacts use the full 24 volts of the control transformer to pull the contacts in and once that happens the work of pulling in the contacts against the return spring is done. Soon after that, the W to B contacts open and the W to R contacts are still engaged and will hold the relay in place until the W to R contacts open. Without that holding circuit, you can only use two of the wires on the Series 10 thermostat.. The R to W or the B to W. Either of those contacts will by design, short cycle.
Your only answer is to get a 2 wire thermostat or a series 10 relay from eBay.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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No just a old thermostat to a r89 to a pump. And a new 2 wire thermostat to a old r19a 3 wire relay to a pump. So hook up 2 wire thermostat to w b on old r19a relay..… and w b wires off old brass thermostat to tt screws on new r89 relay when I get more cash will change old relay and thermostat. I'm hoping old thermostat will work.
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"No just a old thermostat to a r89 to a pump" what Old thermostat? TM11A thermostat connected W to R on thermostat to T T on relay will short cycle. That will wear out the relay and the pump very quickly.
Do Not Do This!And a new 2 wire thermostat to a old r19a 3 wire relay to a pump". That will work. Connect thermostat R to R19A relay B and connect thermostat W to R19A relay W.
Best advise is to connect the old thermostat to the R19A relay and connect the 2 wire thermostat to the R89 Relay.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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So r89 to old thermostat is a no .install new 2 wire thermostat...but the other one with new 2 wire thermostat to the r19a is a go hook up to rb or wr?
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I have a new round 2 wire honeywell. To hook up to r89 just did not want to deal with wall hole dont have the mounting base for round one.
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As @EdTheHeaterMan and I have pointed out before you CAN use a series 80 2 wire thermostat to operate an R19 or RA 89 relay.
You CANNOT use a series 19 or any series 10 three wire thermostat to run an RA89A relay.
@karter This has been beaten to death with the same answers repeated over and over. Your RA19 relay is old. You already bought a ne RA89A. Change the relay, install a new run of two wire thermostat cable and a new two wire thermostat and be done with the issue.
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Is the honeywell round thermostat a r19? I can't hook it up to my r19a using 2 wires .I'm ahure my wires are good it would be a nightmare to run new wire its 35ft to thermostat and everything is finished
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The round Honeywell thermostats are a T87.
Yes you can probably use the old wires if you can connect them up correctly.
Did you actually find a problem ? I'm a bit lost as to what the problem actually is.
Seems like a lot of tinkering going on and I am wondering why ?
The art, science and outcome of troubleshooting is to identify the actual defective part and only change (replace) what needs to be changed.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
If you insist on using the old R19A realy run 2 thermostat wires to it. Connect the R terminal on the thermostat. The round T87 thermostat. Connect R on the thermostat to B on the relay. Connect W on the thermostat to W on the relay.
This has already been posted 3 times by three different people
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I think to use a T87 thermostat with a R19A relay you need to use the relay's W and B terminals. Since the R on the R19A goes to a Normally Open (NO) contact that is an open circuit until the relay coil is energized. The only way to energize the relay coil is through the B terminal.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System
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Yes we it is then.when I get extra cash i will change relay to a r89. I think it all started with a locked up b&g mini pump.i changed the cartridge it was running but it ran very hot why.not shure if its still working when I get the relay wired right.how does one tell if its running other pumps make to much vibration. Sorry for the mess.but thanks for sticking with it.looks like some don't understand the old relay..
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I'm baffled by this whole thing. Follow the wiring diagram on the cover of the relay. What's so difficult?
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
@karter, Are you an Artificial Intelligence Bot?
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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@karter, Are you trying to solve one thermostat problem that includes one relay and one circulator pimp?
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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@karter, How many thermostat problems are you trying to solve?
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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2 dif thermostats and relays. I'm not a bot.
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Now I need to figure out if that mini b&g pump is running
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That's exactly what a bot would say. /s
There's a free phone app called Danfoss Ref Tools that has a function called magnetic tool to tell if a circulator is running. It uses the phone's built in compass to detect the magnetic field.
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@karter look inside the cover of your R19 relay. It shows how to wire the relay to a 3 wire thermostat OR to a 2 wire thermostat
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@karter. ok we have established that you have 2 problems to solve. But we have not determined if you are a BOT. but on the assumption that you are a real person, then lets solve only one of the problems first. Pick a problem.
- The R89 relay problem zone
- the R19A relay problem zone
Choose one only
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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I believe we got the prob solved on both relays. Prob now is how do I know if my b&g mini pump is running with it being the last pump in kine on return to boiler other pumps are pulling that line also so hard to determine if its working
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I read cover but was not shure if there was a dif in 2 wire thermostats being that the r19 was so old
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I asked you to pick one. This is two different statements.
Unless both statements are about the same zone I won't help you.
Please select one problem and we will stick with that problem until resolved. Otherwise you will need to spend money you don't have on a professional to visit your location.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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More R19A confusion.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
@109A_5 Where did you find this video? Is this a video from @karter?
the person in the video obviously does not understand basic electric circuitry. I would look at where the other end of the red wires go to. The fact that there is more than one wire connected to another wire under one wire nut has nothing to so with what is at the other end of all those red wires. What is at the other end of the wires is the question the needs to be answered.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Youtube search for R19A relay. I have no idea if it is @karter, probably just someone else having a bad day with a R19A relay. As you know Wiring and Electrical / Electronics stuff is often very difficult for folks. Then attempting to troubleshoot something you don't understand well is even harder, especially if it is someone else's wiring disaster. I can't do Brain surgery, but I can get a sliver out of my finger.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
All is good thanks ed. That ap is very cool that's not me who's digging up crap and trying to post as me .
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I can see that the R19 type relay could be a bit perplexing, if one doesn't really follow the circuitry and the logic.
It is unusual in that it is built with two sets of contacts, not just one, and one of those sets (1 on the circuit diagram) is wired to the terminals so that it is a latching relay (the other, 2 on the circuit diagram, is also normally open — but controls the external load). Basically it was designed for an application where a trigger was wanted — but the trigger could be momentary (like a push button or some such) while the relay would stay closed until the latch circuit was opened. W and B are the trigger circuit leads; W and R are the latch circuit. It could be used in any application requiring that behaviour (and I might add that any relay with two sets of NO contacts can be wired to do that if wanted). The real beauty of it when used with the #10 thermostat is that the latch circuit could go through the anticipator heater. Since the holding voltage of the relay is considerably less than the operating voltage, the voltage drop through the anticipator heater wasn't a problem.
Ingenious.
The series 10 thermostat needed that behaviour, as the bimetal element had no hystersis built in, and as soon as the space started to heat even a little, the trigger contacts (B, the stiff blade) would open, but power would still go to R through the flexible blade until a higher temperature (from the heater) opened the bimetal further. Then as the space cooled, the flexible blade would close first — but wouldn't turn on the trigger until it cooled enough so the stiff blade made contact, which would power the trigger circuit in the relay and off you'd go.
I love it. I just love it. So simple, so ingenious!
The mercury bulb thermostats didn't need that, as the action of the mercury bulb creates an inherent hysteresis.
Digital circuitry can be built to either be latching or not, depending on the circuity (there is an old joke about SCRs — involving having to spend hours figuring out how to get them to stop conducting… which can be remarkably difficult on DC circuits),
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England1
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