New boiler keeping us up all night!

benjamin1618

I saw some other guys on here talking about the same issue: changed an old pancake Arco out for a new system. Lo and behold BANG bing BANG BANG BANG rattle rattle.

Can you guys take a look, and tell me what you think? Thanks!

Jamie Hall

First place to look is water level. The water level in the new boiler should match the water level in the boiler it replaced. If not all sorts of evils can occur. Including bang bang rattle and no heat…

There are ways to fix that.

In the meantime, is this one pipe or two pipe?

ethicalpaul

Water level may be at play, especially if your returns are near the current water level.

But the first place I would look would be, did the installer skim the boiler? Watch the water level during the noise if you can and see if it has dropped dramatically in the gauge glass which is an indication of surging.

The piping on the boiler looks decent so you should be able to get to nice silent operation easily enough.

You seem to be in Chicago so you have an excellent steam professional in the area if your guys can't figure it out, but give them a chance. Maybe they did mention they would come back for skimming? Come to think of it, what did they say when you called them about the banging?

PS: I hope you kept that sweet gauge from the old boiler as a momento

mattmia2

i don't think that reducing bushing on the outlet of the boiler is ok, the reduced riser is probably not the size spec'd by the manufacturer.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Agree with @mattmia2

Pictures can be deceiving but the riser to the main looks like 2 1/2 or 3" and the boiler header looks like 2". Can't see Hartford loop well enough to see if it is correct. Probably undersized pipe and not skimmed.

The equalizer should not have the long horizontal run above the boiler water line.

To bad because the piping looks nice and neat and straight but it's wrong. They even put new air vents on the ends of the mains.

What else is new?

benjamin1618

@Jamie Hall Thanks. One pipe.

benjamin1618

@ethicalpaul they’ve come out once and probably again, they used conditioner in the pipe, did some leveling of my radiators, and replaced some old valves. I’ll check the level when it bangs.

They left the gauge for me, but I let them take it. Probably should have kept it!

benjamin1618

@mattmia2 I’ll check out that reducer and get back to you. I’ll also ask them about the equalizer. Thanks!

benjamin1618

@EBEBRATT-Ed I’ll try to upload better pictures later tonight. Thanks for the help!

Jamie Hall

Levelling the radiators isn't the bangs. The bangs are from water — condensate or carryover — not being able to drain freely out of some of the horizontal pipes — which must be pitched to drain somewhere. That's always worth checking.

benjamin1618

@ethicalpaul Yes Chicago, you said you have an expert out here? I’m currently with Deljo.

ethicalpaul

Well I don't have him, but he is @The Steam Whisperer

See his contractor page here

But do keep in mind that skimming often requires several sessions. I have a friend who has skimmed about 7 times so far. But his system is massive. Definitely keep working with your installer, you already paid them after all.

mattmia2

They must be skimming it, not just dumping chemical in it(which too much of will cause foaming in addition to not removing the oil). It has to be filled and water drawn off the top of the boiler using a skim port, probably the plug on that tee that goes to the riser on this boiler.

@EBEBRATT-Ed I looked at that equalizer and figured if it was pitched although not ideal, it should still drain. The issue comes in between the equalizer and hartford loop where it is at or below the water line so that horizontal section has water in it so it needs to be a close or street fitting there to minimize the horizontal length. Maybe I'm missing something but I don't think that is the problem. I do think the pipe sizes and lack of cleaning are problems.

mattmia2

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1824855#Comment_1824855

Look in the manual for the boiler, it will give the minimum sizes for all the pipes in the near boiler piping.

dabrakeman

If you could throw in a couple oblique angle pictures it might help clarify a couple things, at least for me.

ethicalpaul

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1824879#Comment_1824879

They want 2.5" supply and header

I looked at that equalizer and figured if it was pitched although not ideal, it should still drain.

Yeah i think so too, and furthermore once the skimmings are done it won't even need to drain.

EdTheHeaterMan

Null

EdTheHeaterMan

Here is an interesting comparison with this double exposure of that same location

showing the old boiler and the new boiler. I used the water heater as a point of reference. The angle may be slightly different but you can see the return pipe on the left is close.

ethicalpaul

Nice, @EdTheHeaterMan

The solution is obvious—6 courses of 4" blocks under the new boiler!

benjamin1618

@EdTheHeaterMan you’re saying raise the boiler?

benjamin1618

@mattmia2 theyre currently “flushing” the system. I asked about skimming and he said yes they did. Sounds like they need to do more.

benjamin1618

@dabrakeman I can send photos once they leave. They’re currently working on it.

benjamin1618

Thanks for all the help guys! This thing cost me nearly 18k (removal, unit, and install), so hopefully it works well and is whisper quiet. I appreciate the advice and help.

ethicalpaul

Skimming involves filling the boiler to a rather high level then allowing water to run out of it from the top while slowly feeding water in.

Then when you are done, you by definition have to drain several gallons out of the boiler to get the water level back to normal. You don't really have to do a separate flush step. I hope they really are skimming it.

mattmia2

The oils float on top of the water. The only way to get it out is to flot it out on the top surface fo the boiler but filling the boiler above where the sections join and slowly adding water so the top surface of the water runs out of a skim port.

If you attempt to remove oil by draining or flushing the boiler, the oil will stick to the inside of the boiler as the water level falls and once you refill the boiler will float on top of the new water.

Big clues that the issue is with surging or priming is the water level in the sight glass will jump around and/or fall significantly while the boiler is steaming.

Side outlet boilers like that are particularly sensitive to the near boiler piping being correct. If that riser isn't the minimum size and number stated in the manual, because the steam exits the side, it will tend to carry water with it which the near boiler piping needs to separate out even if the water quality is good. I would compare the sizes to the manual and make them fix it if they aren't at least what is specified in the manual. You can get away with more wrong with the near boiler piping in boilers with top outlets.

benjamin1618

@mattmia2 @ethicalpaul Thanks for the info guys. They said they’re skimming after I questioned more.

ethicalpaul

Ask them to show you how to do it if you care to know, it's a good skill.

benjamin1618

@dabrakeman here are a couple other photos

benjamin1618

@dabrakeman the foam in the sight glass is apparently from the solution they’re using.

ethicalpaul

Why is the water level so low? Is it making steam during the time the photo was taken?

I wonder where they are skimming from…the side outlet doesn't look set up for skimming but maybe the removed the fittings.

delcrossv

Sort of curious: did the system make noise with the old boiler?

What prompted replacing it?

mattmia2

Foam is called priming and it will also cause water to be thrown in to the mains and cause the problems you are having.

Unless there is a fitting on a side we can't see at about the same hight, this is the skim port for the boiler and where they should be skimming:

CoachBoilermaker

Can someone explain what the double exposure photo reveals?

What rule is being broken by the new install?

mattmia2

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1824993#Comment_1824993

some connection between returns that was below the water line so air and steam can't move between the 2 may be above the water line now.

EdTheHeaterMan

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1824948#Comment_1824948

I would have thought of that if I were installing the new boiler.  I remember doing just that  on a steam boiler replacement early in my career.   I didn't have enough knowledge to know if that made a difference so I added lots of blocks.   Later on in my career I could tell the difference from one job to the next if the water line could be lowered or not.   

Without looking at your setup I can't say for sure that you need to raise it. I was just illustrating what others have mentioned.

bburd

A false water line can be constructed instead of raising the boiler. It's not cheap, but much less costly than disconnecting the boiler and reinstalling it at a higher level.

EdTheHeaterMan

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1824993#Comment_1824993

Here are the two photos that make up the double exposure Coach. The old boiler had a water line that higher than the new boiler. I am not sure if this is breaking any rules without a onsite examination of the rest of the system. But one thing that may be happening here is in this video at about time stamp 2:24:07

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U07Mp5DeFX4

The Steam Whisperer

It looks like you have at least a double whammy there…. a very dirty boiler and undersized boiler riser and header piping. The manual requires 2 1/2 inch, which is the size of the tapping on the side of the Dunkirk brand boilers. You can see a reducing bushing in the tee on the side of the boiler probably bringing the boiler riser and header down to 2 inch. In order to properly skim the boiler from the side tapping tee, it must be reducing down to at least 1 1/2 inch. A quick look inside the boiler will show you that the manufacturer's piping diagram is incorrect regarding the skim tapping. The upper nipple connection is above the bottom of the 2 1/2 inch side tapping piping.

These economy grade Dunkirk boilers heavily rely on the near boiler piping for proper operation, so it is quite important to at least meet the manufacturer's minimums shown in the manual.

With this small of a boiler ( I'm guessing 112,500 input, maybe 150,000 input) these models can work pretty well if piped properly.

Whether the waterline height is an issue would require a look at the piping of the system.

clammy

Not to be a tool but all the signs of amateurs w a lic doing what business do which is make money . A true steam guy would have used both tappings especially on side tapping boilers and not reducered anything and not done a horizontal equalizer piping across the top of the boiler theres easier and better ways to it aside from going across the top of the boiler , they also would have never reduced the return inlet . As for skimming i am not a fan of side outlet boilers by any means but the really nice thing is you can wand her out from the top through the skim tapping and remove the plug on the return and wash it out it really cuts skim time down ,i prefer this method over a hour or more of skimming . Sadly for the money you would think a bag or two of quick crete for the floor would have been in order and a common good practice is to have a solid base under the boiler being some gas boilers bottoms are open and having the open area under the boler increase the excess air and also can cause the burner flame to lift and cause excessive draft across the burner ,it is all in the instructions and on a base they usually want it at least 8 inch larger then the boiler base . As for skimming they should not have to be asked about it a real steam guy informs the customer that there will be return visits to clean the boiler in some cases 2 or 3 times . The rest of the stuff like pitch rads and changing vents all come along w getting a new boiler including updating main vents and insulating piping . Even though some say it does not matter i tend to believe that if it was not necessary when the system was installed they would not have done it being 100 years things may have been not seem expensive in comparisons to today but would have never done it had it served no purpose and as some may argue i say put the heat in the rads not in your basement its a waste of energy and form more condensate in the mains and slows steam distribution and over time will grove the bottom of the mains and of course start leak at threaded joints due to the metal being the thinnest . I will give them some credit they did it in steel pipe which in nj is not the most common thing seen on steam boilers being not everyone is the mind set of doing the completely right job only a few idiots out here . And i know i lose to these types all the time but that's fine by me ain't my house ain' t my bills ain t the one putting up w it . Sorry if it comes off arrogant or elitist but after you see this shadiness and bull all the time on alot of jobs it gets to ya and after a while you stop putting up a good argument as to your price and let them have some one do the job and then they realize they did not get what they though they where getting but got hosed and of course re do are always about as much money as the garbage install was . Just cant make it up living the dream!

peace and good luck clammy

benjamin1618

@delcrossv The system made no noise before. It’s so irritating to spend so much money and then the thing is just ruinous to the environment in my home.

benjamin1618

@The Steam Whisperer Thanks for the help! Can they easily change the reducer situation?

Also, it’s irritating to hear that Dunkirk is not a great boiler. I asked about them and also tried to do some research, but there is not that much info out there respectively.

Is it possible that this is only a skimming issue and it can be resolved with enough cleanings?

Yesterday they changed the height of the main pipe going out to the split but it didn’t work; still banging throughout the night.