New-ish local boiler install
New owner of an old local building let me in to see his 2-pipe steam system with a boiler installed by local plumbers. I think i see some issues:
Bullhead?
Most of the rads are cold or heat up only partially, I'm assuming because they are plumbed for hot water?
Ends of the mains show no vents.
That big red valve leaks a lot of water at startup.
Thanks for looking and any recommendations.
Alex
Bryant 245-8, 430k btu, 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains. 26 radiators 3800sqf
Comments
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Yea, that one isn't going to last very long before it starts leaking.
FIRST BIG MISTAKE
There are no swing joints on the double riser. this will cause the boiler sections to flex back and forth until the sections start leaking.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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The main issue is the inability to RTFM!
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RTFM?
Bryant 245-8, 430k btu, 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains. 26 radiators 3800sqf
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Would like to help fix the issues before then. Is it doable? During the off-season?
Bryant 245-8, 430k btu, 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains. 26 radiators 3800sqf
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RTFM? I think he's trying to say the installers didn't read, or follow, the installation manual.
Dennis Pataki. Former Service Manager and Heating Pump Product Manager for Nash Engineering Company. Phone: 1-888 853 9963
Website: www.nashjenningspumps.com
The first step in solving any problem is TO IDENTIFY THE PROBLEM.
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Read
The
Fu**ing
Manual
I agree, it’s like they want to do a poor job. Anyone, in any industry, that doesn’t read the manual, is automatically a hack in my world. I learned how important the manual is when I was a teen assembling my parents new propane grille. Missed part of one step and had to disassemble almost the entire grille because I couldn’t put the last part on. I also work for an OEM manufacturer of industrial HVAC and refrigeration equipment and I can tell you first hand, even on the multi million dollar installs of our equipment some “experienced” contractors screw it up, and screw it up HUGE. It’s sad when there is a manual that will make most of these mistakes, essentially, impossible.
For the OP, I’d start with a radiator survey. If one is going to touch anything you need to know how big the mistakes are. I’d bet money they didn’t size it correctly and on a two pipe that can be a much bigger problem. After that the entire boiler needs repiped. I’m not a two pipe expert, but there are definitely details of each system that need to be correct for it to function properly and that needs to be verified to see how extensive the repipe needs to be.
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I added an edit. The piping diagram from the manual and a mock up of what is there. That boiler will flex at the riser tappings. You may catch it in time next summer, OR it may be too late. To be sure, that you get it right next summer, take all the sections apart and install all new "O"ring at all the section connections. you will also need new sealer and maybe new rope gaskets. Part numbers 592-800-010, 592-800-007 and 591-641-865.
You will need a set of o rings and rope gaskets for each section you take apart. OR… You can try to redo the piping without changing the O Rings and hope you get lucky.
Since you have low head room in that location, I strongly recommend a Drop Header in order to get necessary rise in all the vertical pipes. Here is an example of a drop header
Make a special note of three things.
- The header is lower AFTER the boiler risers go above 24" before the elbows turn to make a U turn back down to the Header.
- the system riser is not placed between the two boiler risers.
- The Hartford loop uses a close nipple (#16) that is connecting the equalizer (vertical pipe at the end of the header) at about 2" below the water line, to the wet return piping. Wet return means the return must drop below the boiler water line before it rises up the the close nipple (#16)
Good luck with this project.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Here’s the other issue with the way the risers are feeding from opposite sides: wet steam.
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
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Perfect. Thank you so much.
Bryant 245-8, 430k btu, 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains. 26 radiators 3800sqf
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Can you get a couple more picture of the rad valve from different angles? Looks like another fixture above it or is it on another line.
The radiator in photo has a steam trap, what makes you think this is a hot water system?This picture seems to be of unrelated DWV line and domestic water supply. Am I missing something?
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Never said it was water, the post is in strictly steam and is a 2-pipe system. Water is leaking from that valve when it starts up (in a diff pic). The photo you quoted is just one of the extreme ends of the main sans vents
Bryant 245-8, 430k btu, 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains. 26 radiators 3800sqf
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No swing joints on the header …it's all WRONG.
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The takeoff for the mains and the equalizer are in the wrong order so any water is going to tend to get thrown in to the mains instead of draining down the equalizer. the pressure is too high. fix the near boiler piping in the off season but it should mostly work if the water quality is good so it isn't priming or surging.
my bet on the not heating would be that there are bad steam traps letting steam in to the returns and/or keeping it from venting. also look for connections that should be under the water line that aren't. at the higher pressure they will need to be far under the water line so turn the pressure down.
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It isn't quite this bad because the risers go to the bullheaded tee then to the equalizer then to the mains horizontally so some of the water will drop in to the equalizer but anything that doesn't drop in to the equalizer is going in to the main.
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What happens at the ultimate end of the main? Unless it is pitched away from the end, the end of the main needs a steam trap or a drip to a wet return to drain the condensate out of the main.
The main could be vented through a crossover steam trap to the return, through an air vent, or the main could just vent through the emitters and their steam taps to the return. It looks like this is just a conventional 2 pipe system, it wasn't some sort of vapor system.
The return needs to have a vent somewhere (or be open)
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Didn't know reading the I&O manual was that difficult……………..
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting4 -
The way i would approach the repiping is by seeing if the water level is stable when it is steaming and if the mains heat before the returns. if the water level is bouncing or if the returns get hot before the mains indicating it is throwing liquid water in the mains, i would try skimming it a couple times and possibly flush the boiler and returns a couple times. If that calms it down I'd wait for the off season for the repipe. if it can't be calmed down by cleaning up the water then i would make the repipe urgent.
Before repiping i would flood the boiler to check for leaks above the water line then i would take the jacket off and look for evidence of leaks between the sections. If you find a leak then i would separate the sections and replace the gaskets. it is possible the section is too damaged to seal in which case you'd need to replace the section or the boiler.
As you can see it would have been easier to read the manual.
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@mattmia2 , the way that one is piped with no swing joints, the header will eventually pull the boiler sections apart. it needs repiping yesterday.
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting
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@guzzinerd , the folks that are posting that the installer didn't read the manual are not saying that you did something wrong bringing this information to us. They are just saying the original installer did a bad job. If everyone read your original comment they would know you are not the original installer and just want to help the system owner to get it right. You should be commended for your insight and efforts.
This will be a larger project than you think. it isn't just changing a couple of pipes. @mattmia2 has a great idea for testing the boiler sections for a leak by filling it with water to about 24” above the eater line and watch for leaks. The sooner you get to this the better. I know you want to wait until the summer. Hope it isn’t too late by then.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Thanks. Yes, I'm just trying to save any boiler in my area with your guy's help.
I'm pretty sure it leaks above the water line, the owner told me it leaked when he accidentally overfilled it. We should also see steam coming out of the chimney if it's leaking, no?
Another thing that concerns me is the 1936 brick chimney. They tied the flue into it in the boiler room, but that's it. Just brick to the top through 2 floors.
Bryant 245-8, 430k btu, 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains. 26 radiators 3800sqf
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I didn't think that the op installed it, i was just saying it is going to be a big project to fix the wrong install.
i also am saying that if the boiler is installed like that there are also very likely other system problems that need to be fixed like bad steam traps and maybe water line height problems.
If the chimney is unlined it very likely needs a liner.
If it leaks above the water line there will be steam up the chimney though if it is small might not be noticible. That is also essentially fuel going right up the chimney. if it is big enough it could be reducing the output such that it can't fill the system.
The water leaking out of the valve packing at startup makes me thing it is throwing a lot of water in the mains.
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@guzzinerd…. If you are going to help get this boiler working properly, and you do this stuff for a living, then take the labor you would charge to do the job of installing a new boiler and double it. You need to take this one completely apart to make it new again. then you need to put it back together with new gaskets and seals. After that is done, you can start to install it properly.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Thank you. I don't charge and do it to keep the old boilers alive, to learn, and for fun. The owner is new to boilers but is pretty handy . Hoping, with the guidance of the forum, we can sort it out.
Bryant 245-8, 430k btu, 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains. 26 radiators 3800sqf
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Good Luck with this project. More than happy to help you in this endeavor.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Thank you all for your information regarding my 'two-pipe steam boiler issues'! I am diving into 'the fix' and appreciate any advice and such.. will keep you posted on the progress.
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