Boiler sight glass water condition

Tuggy

Wondering if having some rust which gets churned up in the boiler during run cycle is something I should address. As you can see in the photos, it's obv rusty mid cycle:

but completely clear during down-time when cold in between

(there is s faint film of rust on top which you can't see in the down-time photo)

There is no water hammer, and the boiler doesn't appear to short-cycle at all. It's about 15 y.o Peerless from what I can tell (the service label was covered up by the emergency power switch. dumb)

Being the the house/piping is over 100 years old, I'm wondering if the level of rust/deposits which gets churned up during the active cycle is normal, or if it should be clear at all times and I should address the issue.

The sight-glass water does bounce up/down a couple 1-2 inches during the active cycle.

Thanks

delcrossv

Draining a couple of gallons out of the bottom drain would help.

As would a little 8way

Jamie Hall

But on the whole it doesn't look or act out of line. If you do decide to use a chemical — 8 way or anything else — use VERY little. It ain't broke, so don't try and fix it.

ethicalpaul

Yeah, drain only until it starts to run clear, then if you want to inhibit future rust, increase the ph a little with a little 8-way.

Be aware that when you first add a treatment such as 8-way (my favorite one), it will loosen up some more junk, and it can cause surging when that stuff loosens up, in which case you should let it settle and then drain a little more out until it goes clearish again.

You don't just want to flush it all out and refill because that will introduce a lot of oxygen which ironically will cause more chocolate milk/mud.

But if you can eventually get the PH to around 10, then corrosion is dramatically reduced.

See my short video here

neilc

can we get a wider long range shot of the boiler?

that float layer in the glass when idle suggests a skim should occur as well

Tuggy

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1820611#Comment_1820611

I can't really see a film on the top right now. I've been draining a cup or two from the bottom every other day when it's inactive for a few hours.. It runs black for a few seconds then it clears to relatively clean.

The wet return I do first and no skale has come out of that area like it might when the system is very dirty or we have water hammer.

Overview of the boiler: Two w/o flash:

Two w/flash

I put this in a few weeks ago at the very beginning of the season when we had a little hammer this year (I needed to do this mid last year when the water mains were being worked on and the boiler sucked up some really filthy water and the hammer was like a bomb.. The women were horrified, I was even unnerved lol. It does work well and quickly fwiw)

I agree with the sentiment of "aint broke don't fix it" but I wanted to ask here, especially since I just installed that antler and it's been very successful so far at bringing significant balance shifting too much steam from the back to the front of the house where it was regularly 4-5° colder. That's mitigated now..

delcrossv

Umm no. Dont use that. Get some 8 way and put a frw tablespoons into the boiler.

Silicone is problematic.

Tuggy

This stuff yea?

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Rectorseal-68712-8-Way-Boiler-Water-Treatment

delcrossv

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1820828#Comment_1820828

Yep.

Tuggy

Got 2 qts of 8-way.

How much of this do I put in based on the condition of the water in my boiler conveyed in my OP pictures? I've only used the other stuff I posted above twice in the past few years. I don't know how many gallons this boiler/hot water heater installed in 2009 is (Peerless I think). The installer apparently thought it would be a great idea to cover the service tag with the emergency power cut-off switch as you can see in my 2nd posts' pics :/

The only piece of the tag I can read (bottom 2 lines) say:

896 Sq Ft

215,000 BTU/hr

Based on the Hercules stuff I'd been using, those figures roughly suggested pouring in the whole quart of that.

The bottle seems to say, like the Hercules, pour the whole thing in (600 sq ft, ~30 gal water) and fire for a ½ - 3 hrs then drain & flush (not sure what flushing means?) the entire boiler, refill and dump in another entire quart of 8way land leave it in.

Any How-Tos for this 8way in my current situation?

ethicalpaul

don’t follow the directions. They want you to use too much.

At 896 sq ft that is a big boiler. I assume you have a big house.

I would try like 1/3 cup is all then see what happens. It will likely free up a lot of sediment and/or scale.

Be prepared to have to drain that off if your boiler surges (throws water into the mains resulting in a dramatic drop in the water line).

If you have to drain some or all the water due to that, add a little less when you refill.

Then let it be for a week or two. Then see if you can drain a little more to let out more chocolate milk.

The goal is to drain as little as possible to eventually get clean water

Your water is very clear in your photos. If you’re lucky you won’t have to do much

STEAM DOCTOR

I can't say that I necessarily agree with Paul's instructions. The idea that adding water and immediately draining it, is detrimental to the boiler, is still a theory (I think). But having sludge and mud in your water is not good for anything. I would suggest putting a bunch of eight way in. Doesn't really matter if you're overloading, because this is only temporary. Jack up the thermostat and let the boiler run until it starts to steam. Shut boiler and wait a few minutes. As long as boiler is hot, the eight-way will do its thing. Wait 10 minutes or whatever, and then turn boiler back on until it starts steaming again. Repeat for 30 to 60 minutes. Afterwards drain, fill to the top of boiler, drain, fill drain fill until water comes out clear. If you happen to have a water transfer pump, will be quicker and easier. Once water is clear, fill to normal water level and add some eight way. Run the boiler immediately and let boiler Steam for a bunch of minutes, to boil out the oxygen. You may need to repeat a few times initially, due to sludge getting dislodge from the returns and things like that.

Tuggy

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1823594#Comment_1823594

Thanks for the recommendations guys

House is flat roof, 3 floors, plus basement (unheated aside from the mains (mostly insulated) & boiler ofc).

• FL3: 7 radiators
• FL2: 6 radiators (one off)
• FL1: 6 radiators (one off)

…plus a riser pipe for 3 of 4 bathrooms, the fourth one of which is not in line and has a regular radiator included in the above bulleted count. Very very rough estimate of total sq footage of the three floors is ~2400sq ft (I added up the sq ft of ea room of FL 3 and multiplied by 3. There are differences of the layouts of the other two floors..)

I just found one radiator in the bedroom of FL2 where the vent isn't shutting during a cycle and the radiator is fully hot, so some steam is escaping there, PLUS there's a slow drip at its' union as well. I'm gonna make another thread shortly and post pics for advice. (There's been short cycling toward the beginning of a cycle every couple days. Seems this might be the main culprit of that. I'd previously thought that some surging (1¾-2in swings in the sight glass) toward the start of the cycle was causing the low water cutoff to be triggered, and the somewhat rusty water shown in my OP here during mid-cycle was the culprit of that surge, but I assume now my reasoning for the LWC triggering was wrong (maybe it's not completely wrong, but not the main contributor, based on what I discovered tonight).

Have to address that before using the the 8way I think.

ethicalpaul

PLUS there's a slow drip at its' union as well. I'm gonna make another thread shortly and post pics for advice. (There's been short cycling toward the beginning of a cycle every couple days. Seems this might be the main culprit of that.

No the short cycling is probably because your boiler is too big. You'd have to calculate the sizes of all your radiators to know for sure, but your house is far smaller than I'd thought it would be for a boiler of 896 sq ft. But then also there is so much confusing here. You say the boiler is 215k BTU but I think that is a lot smaller than 896 sq ft.

Also you say the boiler is from 2009 but it looks far more ancient than that. I am totally confused now.

But yes you should fix your leaks before worrying about water treatment.

The idea that adding water and immediately draining it, is detrimental to the boiler, is still a theory (I think).

I don't think I ever said that.

Tuggy

but your house is far smaller than I'd thought it would be for a boiler of 896 sq ft. But then also there is so much confusing here. You say the boiler is 215k BTU but I think that is a lot smaller than 896 sq ft.

I wasn't here when this was installed. If you look at my 2nd post in this thread, the 1st pic, zooming in you can see just the bottom of (I assume) the service tag for this boiler, as the upper 80% of it was covered by the cut off switch-junction box. There are three lines w/box entries w/descriptions next to each still visible when I look closely (might not be clear in the pic tho). They are:

• SQ. FT.
• B.T.U. HEAT
• B.T.U. HOT WATER

The first two of those lines have those numbers I conveyed above printed on them.

Could they be wrong? Could I be misinterpreting them? I honestly don't know. It says at the bottom of the tag "THE PEERLESS HEATER CO." This boiler provides both the steam heating and the hot water to the house.

As far as the install date, I'm just reading from a paper tag installers left hanging from one of the hot water pipes in the room at the ceiling and it says '..boiler installed..' and it's dated from May 2009.

ethicalpaul

what is the sq ft number here? It can’t be read from the photo

Maybe the burner is from 2009 but the boiler is more like 1979

Tuggy

896 is in the box there (unless I'm losin it :-D ).

I will quintuple check in the AM, try to get a good pic of it too (it's faded as it is)

And the BTU reading for "heat" says that 215K/hr number.

Maybe the burner is from 2009 but the boiler is more like 1979

I wouldn't have imagined something like that was possible. Interesting.

Tuggy

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1823875#Comment_1823875

Clear photos of the last three lines of the Service Tag, from two angles (due to being obscured by the electrical conduit:

What say you?

ethicalpaul

that checks out. Sq ft x 240 = net btu.

Sorry for adding confusion!

Tuggy

No prob. But the boiler is (likely) still to big and possibly the cause of some of the short cycling I'm getting.. Since replacing it isn't an option, is there anything else I might try to mitigate the short cycling I'm getting?

To be clear-

It seems to be doing it near the start of the cycle, but never afterwards, during mid or end cycle. It reminds me of those electric tea kettles— You put in a quart of tap water, and turn it on. Near the end of the first minute, there's several seconds (7?) when you can see the water in the water window gets very violent and surging way up/down. Then it calms and remains just relatively stable for the final 2-3 mins until it's ready at target temp and the circuit shuts off.

This is exactly analogous to what I'm witnessing happening with this boiler. I'd just assumed it was due to not clean water (see rust in OP pics when mid cycle) and combined (now) with the fact the city makeup water is entering every other day.

ethicalpaul

The burner can likely be down-fired by a competent technician to reduce its steam production (and I'd look into that, assuming it is actually oversized), but what you are describing sounds like your main venting might be missing or insufficient. Are you aware of your main venting situation?

Tuggy

The only thing I am aware of was that I had very insufficient main venting for the front of the house and I built an antler to somewhat equalize the 5° disparity from the back to front. It's down to 2° now and the radiators in the front get fully hot now

Thread

Here's a few pics of the boiler room, and right behind the back wall is the rear room of the house, so the boiler is situated close to the back. 2nd pic, top left (it's dark), you can see the main vent that's for the much shorter run for the rear of the house.

Idk what size/kind of vent that is

ethicalpaul

it’s insufficient is the type I would call it

TKPK

https://youtu.be/bwd_9pVxa44?si=zxLFskiqGUawk-8s

really good video from 7 years ago. Is Nathan on here?

ethicalpaul

That's a great video. If this information were getting out then I wouldn't feel the need to create my videos about corrosion. Every technician who works on steam boilers and every homeowner who owns a steam boiler should be aware of and be following this advice. I have visited 10 or so people's boilers and never once met a homeowner who knew about this nor a boiler that had been properly treated to reduce corrosion. It boggles my mind.

TKPK

couldn’t agree more .., it is so obvious when you think about it.

Tuggy

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1824242#Comment_1824242

I watched this very video about a week ago

Really interesting that the corrosion also actually rockets up after PH13. So there's this sweet spot from about 10-12 it seems

Tuggy

Here's some more pics of the nbp and the back room behind the boiler room (this is essentially the rear of the house which gets the most heat quickest/intensely):

Here's a clear shot of the main vent that's on the (end of the) return line from the short main run (immediately before the drop to wet return), (over)serving the center/rear of the house: (idk what type/capacity that vent it)

Here's the rear room directly behind the boiler room:

and the rear-most wall of the rear room:

TKPK

that vent is supposed to be equivalent to a vent rite 35.

I had some vent rite 35s on my system. I pulled them off to test and found them to be pretty restrictive. Soaked them in vinegar and got them a little better.

I am just some guy but from what I have read, that location and vent can be improved with an antler and more venting … I put either a gorton #2 or at least 2 gorton #1s at the end of each of my main loops.

You will get better advice soon but I would put a street 45, x inch nipple, tee, street elbo on each side and 2 vents of your choosing. The street elbo perpendicular to the direction of flow is better.

My mains now fill in 3.5 minutes or less … almost as fast as if I removed the vent completely (which is what you are trying to do)

Tuggy

Well, there is certainly NO ISSUE with that branch of underventing-

That serves the center to rear of the house, which already gets too much proportion of the heat; first and the most, since it's more directly over the boiler, and a relatively short run.

If anything, I'd want less venting there, not more.

I already built a service branch for the center→ front of the house (linked in my previous post above), which somewhat brought things closer in to balance, but not 100%. (5° differential to ~2-3° differential now)