Where's all the water going????

overtheunder1133

Hey. I'm new to group... I have a Willamson steam boiler that runs off natural gas. About a month ago, I noticed that the auto feeder was adding water too frequent. I can see the water level drop in the sight glass about an inch in an hour. It drains slowly till the LWCO is triggered and activates the auto feeder. I reset the counter on the feeder and in 4 days it went through over 220 gallons of water! ....I've had 3 different plumbers look at it. Can not find a water leak anywhere. Where is all that water going???? I've checked for water everywhere. I thought about bleeding all the radiators in the house, thinking maybe there's an air lock somewhere that could be pulling water into a void, but i was told by someone that steam radiators have vents that work as bleeders automatically?? Idk. Im not very experienced with heating systems, that's why I've had 3 different plumbers check it out with no answers. ... Finally where I stand now is I disconnected the feed line on the auto feeder and I am just adding manually when I need heat. ...... New development, since I disconnected the feed, I can see in the sight glass that the water drains to below the LWCO trigger and the level remains at the bottom of the glass, so it isn't draining completely out of the system as if there's a leak in the furnace itself, it's just continuously drains water below the LWCO to trigger the feeder. The yellow light comes on but because I disconnected the feed line, it stays on till I manually fill. Does anyone have an idea about what is happening and a solution because I am losing my mind over this situation. I appreciate any feedback and help. Thanks

PC7060

Can you provide pictures of the boiler and surrounding piping?

neilc

we love pictures,

do you have wet returns under the slab?

and,

do you have white clouds at the top of your chimney when running on a cool morning?

ethicalpaul

I would wager there is a large hole in the top of the boiler and steam is going up the chimney.

Carefully fill the water to just above the top of the boiler and see if water starts running onto the floor under the boiler

overtheunder1133

overtheunder1133

No wet returns. No water anywhere. I read about checking steam out of the chimney. It hasn't been very cold yet to really be able to see if steam is escaping from the stack. I will look at that the next cold morning or day

PC7060

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1818935#Comment_1818935

Do this test ^^^^

overtheunder1133

I appreciate all the feedback very much. I'll fill the water to top and see if it comes out there

ethicalpaul

it looks too new to be rotted out, hard to judge the piping, at least from the limited view provided.

If you fill it to the line, will the level drop in front of your eyes while it is making steam?

overtheunder1133

Another point to add that I've forgotten.... the last 3 weeks that the water has been leaking, the furnace has not been in use. It's been so warm that the heat has not been coming on, but the water was still draining and auto feeder refilling. I've just today had the heat come up. The heat is working perfectly. All radiators are heating up. It works perfectly, except for draining water continuously. Not being able to locate where to it's draining has me so confused

overtheunder1133

Ya. I needed heat this morning so I went down, the LWCO yellow light was on and there was water at the very bottom of the sight glass. I could see the level. I filled the water manually to top of glass. Furnace kicked on. Threw heat and got the thermostat back to set temp and the water level dropped in the glass from where I filled it to almost the top and now level is halfway down the glass after the furnace ran for about 25 mins

overtheunder1133

Important point is water was draining without the furnace running. so I don't think it's related to the heat exchange or making steam, but I'm a novice in this environment, so im not sure of anything really. .... I've learned everything I know about heating systems in the last 3 weeks in researching a solution to this

delcrossv

I see some rust next to the burners. No puddle on the floor?

overtheunder1133

I can't see water anywhere. Not near the boiler or anywhere in the house. It's baffling to me because we're talking about a lot of water. It shouldn't be hard to find

EBEBRATT-Ed

Are you positive you have no wet returns under the floor? Also check all the steam piping starting at the boiler and check for steam leak although this is unlikely because you say it is draining with the boiler off.

Sounds like steam coming out the chimney is going to be the issue if you have no wet returns.

If you have to replace the boiler, check back here before you start for some wise advise to keep u out of trouble.

delcrossv

Did you follow the bottom pipes in this picture?

KC_Jones

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1818965#Comment_1818965

This. I see part of what appears to be a wet return in that picture.

ethicalpaul

Important point is water was draining without the furnace running.

I rescind my wager due to missing and erroneous reporting of fact 😂

PC7060

Duplicate - nothing to see here . 😃

PC7060

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1818966#Comment_1818966

No experience with steam but I thought the return piping included a loop (Hartford?) which protects the boiler from loss of water due to leak in the return water line.

ethicalpaul

The Hartford loop does almost nothing to help you with a modern boiler since we now have electronic low water cutoffs.

It certainly doesn't prevent water loss out of the returns if there is a leak there.

PC7060

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1818984#Comment_1818984

Agree but the boiler water wouldn’t drain below the top of the loop and triggering the LWCO. No? Provided the boiler has Hartford loops installed (and has not run for last several days per the OP).

ethicalpaul

depends where the loop is compared to the lwco probe. At this point I’m not saying anything else unless I see this thing with my own eyes 😂

ethicalpaul

No wet returns. No water anywhere.

I wonder if the OP mistakenly thinks that “wet returns” are returns that are visibly wet (no judgement, just wondering)

Jamie Hall

I'm looking very closely at several comments. First, the water level drops without the boiler firing. Second, it drops to a certain point — but, apparently (is this correct, @overtheunder1133 ?) not farther — though that point is below the LWCO level. Third, I don't see enough of the boiler piping to see if there is a Hartford Loop and, if there is, where it is.

Now.

First, If the water level drops without the boiler firing, the leak is not a steam leak. So we don't have to worry about that. That, however, does not rule out a leak in the boiler below the water line — and certainly does not rule out a leak in a wet return.

Second, if the water drops to a certain point and no farther, there are two possibilities: the leak is at that elevation, either in the boiler or somewhere in the wet return piping, or second, that that is the elevation of the Hartford Loop, and the leak is in the wet return piping somewhere (the Hartford Loop prevents a wet return from draining the boiler below the elevation of the Hartford Loop, but not from draining down to the Loop).

Good hunting.

JUGHNE

It looks like you have several return pipes to the boiler.

If you have several steam mains/pipes hanging on the ceiling, each of them might have a return line that drops down to the floor or into the floor. They can go into the floor and pop up in the boiler room or even come up inside a basement wall and then exit out of that wall.

Sometimes they just go under the floor for a doorway or across a room.

If you find the steam ends and see how the condensate water returns to the boiler, following that path, you may find some piping under the floor. Buried returns are very susceptible to leaks that you never see.

With the boiler running a long cycle at full tilt you may eventually have a warm spot on the floor. Your bare feet may feel it, that is where cats like to sit in the wintertime also.

A basic flair camera could find it quickly.

More pictures (with better lighting) of return piping at the boiler and the wall with the pipes that have the tee, looks like a table top against that wall. These would be helpful.