Radiators on 3rd floor not getting hot.

EdG53

Hi.

I am renting a 3rd floor apt in a 3 story walkup. There is no thermostat in my apt. Whether my radiators heat up depends on the 1st floor tenant. If they like it hot, my radiators get hot and I actually have to shut the valves on some of the radiators to keep from getting cooked. The current tenant is not setting his thermostat high enough that my radiators get hot at all. The only warmth I am getting is from hot air rising up the stairwell.

I suggested to the landlord (absentee) last year that the system was short cycling and asked him to raise the pressure on the Pressuretrol a tad. He ignored me.

So, this year I am wondering whether replacing the air valve on at least one of my radiators would get me some actual heat. The air valve in the bathroom is the variable type and I am wondering whether I can get a valve that offers less resistance? Is replacing it likely to help?

pecmsg

1st what are the renter laws in that city county state? Most, if not all require some minimum temperature during the winter.

EdG53

@pecmsg

I am not looking to antagonize the landlord. Legal action may be 1st for you, but for me, 1st is trying to get steam into my radiator. Thanks for the quick response though.

ethicalpaul

I suggested to the landlord (absentee) last year that the system was short cycling and asked him to raise the pressure on the Pressuretrol a tad. He ignored me.

Your suggestion here was probably misguided. It sounds from your description that there simply isn't enough call for heat from that tenant's thermostat in order to get you any heat. This is not sounding like short cycling. Short cycling (cycling on pressure) in a steam system would still be providing steam to you. Boosting the pressure control is not a solution to you not getting heat.

 Legal action may be 1st for you, but for me, 1st is trying to get steam into my radiator. Thanks for the quick response though.

To be fair, legal action isn't 1st. First was telling of your discomfort to the absent landlord. How far did that get you?

You don't have control over the thermostat, the boiler, or even your own radiator in this scenario.

The solution is to slow down the radiators in the thermostat tenant's apartment, possibly speed yours up, possibly add venting to the riser that goes up to your floor, possibly all of these things, but you have to rely on the landlord for all of those things. Many have found it easier to move.

EdG53

@ethicalpaul

I appreciate your thoughtful response. I have been looking at various webpages regarding air valves over the last couple days and they mention a range of different valve sizes…#4, #5, #6, C, D and #1… with #1 being the largest. Is there any reason to think replacing my variable air valve with say…a #1…would encourage the steam to travel higher than the second floor? I think that is the essence of my question.

ethicalpaul

Just for your knowledge, D and #1 are the same size as each other, in both the Maid O Mist and Gorton sizings.

D is a 1/8" thread which is typical for radiator vents where #1 is a 1/2" or 3/4" thread typical for main vent fittings.

yes, all things equal, if you were to replace a vent smaller than a D on your radiator with a D, it would tend to let steam up to your radiator faster than with the smaller vent.

If you are lucky enough to have a Maid O Mist vent today, you can remove the little orifice thingy from the top of it which will make it into a size D to test that.

Are you pretty sure your existing vent is operating? By that I mean, can you hear or feel air escaping from it when the boiler is generating steam? I would imagine that since you said with the previous tenant that your radiator was too hot, it probably is operating, but it's good to know…maybe the vent has "failed closed" or "failed mostly closed" which will be like little to no vent at all, letting no steam come up (or very limited).

ARobertson13

EdG53,

My advice to you is to talk to the tenant on the 1st floor and ask him to adjust the thermostat to a higher setting. If the vent in your units radiators are not large, You can ask the 1st floor tenant with the landlord's approval to use a smaller size vent in their unit so they do not get over heated.

EdG53

"Are you pretty sure your existing vent is operating? By that I mean, can you hear or feel air escaping from it when the boiler is generating steam? I would imagine that since you said with the previous tenant that your radiator was too hot, it probably is operating, but it's good to know…maybe the vent has "failed closed" or "failed mostly closed" which will be like little to no vent at all, letting no steam come up (or very limited)."

When I told the landlord last year that my radiators were ice cold, he came over and had the 1st floor tenant turn up his thermostat. When I got home from work that day my apt was hissing and steaming like Mt Vesuvius. So, the system works but the 1st floor tenant doesn't want to set his thermostat that high and I don't blame him. Set so that he is comfortable the steam will travel as far as the 2nd floor and that's it. That is why I suggested upping the setting on the Pressuretrol.

My experience with a Pressuretrol was from a 2 story house I used to rent. My understanding was that a typical steam system can handle about 4 psi and the Pressuretrol was set to cut off at around 2 psi. I upped the cut off to about 2.25 psi and that was enough to remedy our situation where one of the upstairs bedrooms was not getting heat. This is not a valid approach? Is it in some way dangerous?

Grallert

With a bit of digging and asking on this sight you and you down stairs neighbor might be able to solve any comfort issues on your own by adjusting or replacing vents. Possibly easier than getting the landlord to get a steam pro to come and go?

EdG53

"My advice to you is to talk to the tenant on the 1st floor and ask him to adjust the thermostat to a higher setting. If the vent in your units radiators are not large, You can ask the 1st floor tenant with the landlord's approval to use a smaller size vent in their unit so they do not get over heated."

I understand this approach. Both you and Paul seem to be in agreement on the idea of the 1st floor tenant using smaller vents and I can see the logic. My preference would be to see what I can do in my apt before prevailing on someone who I never see.

ethicalpaul

 I upped the cut off to about 2.25 psi and that was enough to remedy our situation where one of the upstairs bedrooms was not getting heat. This is not a valid approach? Is it in some way dangerous?

No it's not dangerous, but I don't find it valid. That setting shuts down the boiler when the cutout is reached, but it only shuts it down long enough for the pressure to lower to the cut-in pressure (in the above case, probably 1.25 PSI.)

In that whole range, and in fact really any pressure, even as low as 1/27 of a psi, the steam will circulate everywhere.

From your description, the boiler isn't staying on long enough to get steam to your radiator given the current venting in any or all of the following places: the main, your neighbors' vents (some or all of them), and your vents. The pressuretrol setting isn't going to change this.

The fact that your radiator was hissing during the test that you got your landlord to run tells me the pressuretrol is already set higher than it needs to be.

KC_Jones

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1818292#Comment_1818292

It's not really a valid approach. The problem is you got a result and drew an incorrect conclusion, and this is how steam turns into a nightmare of sorts.

The boiler doesn't make pressure. The pressure is back pressure due to inadequate venting not allowing it to move at the speed it needs, or a boiler that is massively oversized for the system, most of the time both. Either way, turning it up doesn't help the steam move better, it just makes it run longer while moving the steam slowly.

Picture it this way. You need to fill a bucket with water as fast as possible. Do you keep the nozzle on the hose and choke the flow, or do you take the nozzle off and let it flow freely? The answer is take the nozzle off. In a steam system turning the pressure up is leaving the nozzle on, and increasing pressure behind a choked off nozzle. Does it do "something"? Sure it does, but it's still not the best solution to the problem. Instead of turning the pressure up, the venting should be increased so the pressure doesn't build, pressure is choked off steam flow in some way.

As far as pressure, I heat quite nicely with 1.2" of water column which is .042 psi or .69 ounces of pressure. It takes very little pressure to properly heat a residential home.

Using bigger vents might not solve the problem. If the downstairs has big vents, you might not be able to "steal" the steam with bigger vents. Often the solution is to slow down the hot areas. You can try the bigger vents, but be prepared it might not work. Also, proper balance starts with proper main venting in the basement, so no matter how hard you try, if that's not right, you may only get so far.

EdG53

@KC_Jones

Thanks! I like your analogy.

At the moment it is 70 degrees out here in NY. So we aren't into the heating season just yet. I believe the top of the variable vent in the bathroom is removable. Next time I notice the furnace is up and running I will run a little experiment with removing that top and see whether I can get heat. Past years, that one radiator was sufficient to heat my entire apt. I kept the radiators in the other two rooms off.

EdTheHeaterMan

I know that the Paul system used a vacuum pump to remove the air from the radiators high in a building in order to get them to work. The inventor got a patent for the system in the early 1900s. Most of these systems are long gone now but the concept can be tested on your radiator. Here is a low cost vacuum pump to try out the idea.

https://www.amazon.com/Goplus-Conditioning-System-Operated-Vacuum/dp/B0874SGYNS/ref%3Dsr_1_48?crid=2O41GTR5WI79&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.SOayIXCLGSgd1PfSVNWz9ZN2Zh9V3RG8bLWXpeMRuSU64OgT_v8S_IREw-wmR56lPTjyddfXXxg2mlP8SVzY9hXX2Lc8XK5Px4yQ5zCBOKorRh3quqqD03z3hUzzJuingV6r31WnqnAVVrt2kUDjdrNlGPo1l1Efx9L1PZn7dsHH2i1RVFLFdHV2II_zLrJAVHumJFQTl72A0u491kdc141hea9OVv771_Iji9F0pAVapVH4kzCAPp7rOObd-8ZDV8UajnrEInRnEj7ewKdBmOWvEOVff4xhcabSgtezkk8.PYfGRWsgeFOlaf3NTaVufE44Lkw-ZbSiBkOkGdUBzbQ&dib_tag=se&keywords=vacuum+pump&qid=1730845940&sprefix=vacuum+pump%2Caps%2C156&sr=8-48

Connect a 1/8" brass fitting to the radiator. Then place a copper tube from the radiatore vent opening to the pump. place a temperature sensing switch that will open on temperature rise on the radiator near the vent opening. That temperature switch can stop the vacuum pump operation when the radiator gets hot. perhaps small check valve can be placed in the line from the radiator to the pump. If that works for you, and you need to do more than one radiator… I can design a system with solenoid valves and temperature sensors for all your radiators to operate on one pump. Then you can purchase a more reliable pump once you know it works.

mattmia2

I'd just use a shop vac.

There's something for you to test @ethicalpaul

AdmiralYoda

Sounds like a system balancing problem. Install #4's on the 1st floor, #5's on the 2nd floor and #6, C or D on the 3rd floor. You would probably also benefit from venting the risers that supply the steam to your radiators.

Installing a Gorton #1 or #2 on the inlet side of the radiator will help the steam come to you as fast as possible.

ethicalpaul

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1818330#Comment_1818330

It sounds fun, but I have to say that based on my observations, if you apply vacuum to any given radiator, the partial vacuum will be applied almost instantly (like at the speed of sound) equally to all radiators, mains, and the boiler (ie: the system as a whole), so it probably wouldn't help to get steam to a particular radiator, even the one the pump is attached to.

It would be different maybe if there were air flow occurring, like if all the other vents were large enough, hmmm

But in a typical system I don't think there'd be enough flow to let the steam get pulled to that one radiator.

Much easier to bribe the landlord until he pays attention to you IMO

EdTheHeaterMan

I have to disagree with @ethicalpaul on this one. If placing a vacuum pump on one radiator does not remove the air from that radiator faster than the other radiators, then why did the vacuum pump work when it was connected to the hard to heat radiators in the building that Bill Skiffington worked in back in 1891?  A co-worker, Andrew Paul noticed that the steam coil, which wasn’t working because it was air bound, was all of a sudden working.   Bill had added a pipe, hooking it up to a small vacuum pump to get rid of the air that was blocking the steam.

I believe Andrew Paul made a small fortune on this idea that Ethical Paul seems to think won't work

Dan H. did a Dead Men's tales podcast about it

https://www.heatinghelp.com/news-and-media/dead-men-tales/the-paul-system-and-other-delightful-discoveries/

I dont think that I want to listed ot a shop vac all night just to get a little extra heat @mattmia2

ethicalpaul

fortunes have been made many times on stuff that doesn’t work.

Was that system putting a vacuum pump on a single radiator to get that one radiator hotter than others?

Or was it putting a vacuum on the whole system to make steam production happen sooner?

mattmia2

I think it depends on if there are other openings to let air in the system such as open vents and how large those openings are.