New boiler, water flowing out of steam vent
Hey yall,
I've learned so much in the last four years about my boiler from this forum. Now I need a little assistance.
My 30 year old boiler started leaking from the tank, so we had it replaced with an Archer steam boiler. This morning I'm running it for the first time. Immediately I notice water hammers much louder and more violent than previously. Gurgling noises coming from the floor and radiators. Then I hear what sounds like water pouring onto the floor. Our living room radiator vent is literally pouring water out of the vent.
I wanted some help here because I don't have enough knowledge to know if the boiler installer knows what they're doing.
I read a few threads on this topic. I made sure this radiator was pitched back by putting a couple quarters under, and now it has a very mild pitch back. I changed the valve hole on top from the widest one to a more narrow one to let it vent more slowly. I decreased the main pressure from 2 to 0.5, and the diff from 1 to 0.5. LESS water came out, and it took longer to come out, but there is still the violent constant hammering, gurgling sounds, whooshing vacuum sounds, and the same vent spewed about 3-4 seconds of a steady stream of water.
Pictures attached, any help appreciated! The install was >$11,000 so I'm hoping to not spend another fortune trying to fix it. The attached pictures of the insulated pipe is the one going to the offending radiator.
Comments
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Someone clearly did not read the instructions.
That boiler is not safe to operate. turn the switch off and call the installer. tell him to fix it before you need to call a lawyer.
If you did not pay in full yer…DON"T
If you used a credit card to pay, call and dispute the charges.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Why is that? I'm trying to know as much as possible.
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There are some things that a knowledgable tradesman knows
These are some rookie mistakes
there are more
To be continued
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Greatly appreciated Ed. What a nightmare… Could any of the install issues be related to the water coming out?
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Absolutely. This is an abomination to put a nicely. I would have been shocked if you did not have water spraying out. And the boiler water is filthy. This shyster needs to be tared and feathered.
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Ugh I can't believe it… This is my first home and I have little experience working with contractors. What else is wrong, and what do I do from here?
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It sounds like I might not want this guy fixing it, right? But of course I've already paid, by check.
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This diagram from the manufacturer shows the recommended near boiler piping.
I added the direction of the steam and the condensate water returning to the boiler.
This is the direction of the steam on your boiler.
This is the direction of the condensate (water) on your boiler
You can clearly see that water from condensation will pool in the low spots of the piping. When that happens you will get banging and water being forced by the steam up into the mains and eventually come out the vents.
AND
And there is more
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Thank you for taking the time to do this, this is so helpful. Is there anything else I need to ask them to fix?
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how did they determine what size boiler to install?
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
I'm not sure, he didn't say.
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You will need to ask them. You may have the wrong size. Here is a helpful guide to select the correct size https://www.weil-mclain.com/sites/default/files/field-file/Weil-McLain_BoilerReplacementGuide_WM2012-web_0.pdf. The part for sizing a steam boiler starts on Page 9 section 2
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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They need to skim the boiler. Until the black goo in your sight glass is gone.Thats oil from manufacturing that needs to be flushed out before the boiler goes into service.
As to your piping, this is what correct near boiler piping looks like.
Photos by @EzzyT
See: https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/198311/another-steamer-today#latest
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
Thank you so much everyone… How would you go about talking to the contractor?
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I have no idea how to talk to a contractor who set it up that way… I will at least admit that the piping for the header and equalizer drip is original. I've never seen the like before, and I hope I never do.
The saddest part of it it is that it would have been so easy to do it right…
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
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Mainly I'm wondering if I can show them this, or at least just the manual, and ask they redo the piping, or should I ask for them to pay for someone who knows how to do it to come and do it. I'm sure it's going to be a struggle either way.
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start with showing them this thread, and the manual, and asking politely. Then take it from there. Not going to be pretty.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
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Start with a kind and gentle approach. Tell them you have a problem with the new boiler.
Ask them if they could figure out what is wrong?
Ask them if they can explain how the steam gets to the radiators and explain how steam works and see if they know.
Ask them when the steam condenses back to water how it gets back to the boiler.
Ask them if your boiler piping looks like the picture in the book on page 17?
If you get resistance from the person who is supposed to know, then talk to the boss or owner of the business.
If that does not work, then you need to tell them that you want it right or your money back. Otherwise there will be lawyers involved. A lawyer can ask the state licensing board to look into their license to install plumbing and or heating systems. That will get their attention.
Document everything in writing. Get an email address and confirm every verbal conversation with an email like this.
Dear (Installer name here)
I want to confirm our (in person or telephone conversation) conversation today so I completely understand what you said. Please make any corrections if I have misunderstood anything.
We talked about the steam header and you said you would correct it at no cost to me. yada yada yada…
Whatever you remember from the conversation, promises made , denial of facts, will dos and won’t dos. You can also say that you are no expert and are relying on their professionalism and experience to solve the problem. You would be open to a factory rep from the manufacturer to visit your location so they (the contractor) can get another expert opinion.
And add this at the end: please confirm your receipt of this email. Thank you
Are you located near Philadelphia? That is where they make that boiler. I know some of the tech support guys there.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Sadly no, I'm in KC. Again, I cannot express my gratitude for the time you've taken this morning which has been quite the stressful one for me.
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I went through the calculations and got 66,000 BTU/hr, so this boiler is obviously over-powered. I know that will tank efficiency but I feel like asking to replace the whole boiler is a no-go.
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Just to make sure all on same page just give us the total sqft of the radiators and then tell us what the sqft rating on the boiler tag is.
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Can I get a boiler "inspection" to document locally the things that are wrong? Would that be another boiler company, a house inspector, or the city?
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Unfortunately, the installer did not install the boiler correctly or follow the MFG recommended piping nor did they skim the boiler.
That should be your focus. Tell them to follow the boiler manual. The fact that the boiler is oversized is probably water over the dam.
The most serious thing that is a bad safety issue is the relief valve installed backwards. DO NOT RUN THIS BOILER.
Any installer that cannot install a relief valve properly should be fired.
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You need to do the radiator EDR calculation, there are no BTU numbers involved starts on bottom of page 9
Most boiler inspectors (usually falls under Plumbing Inspector) do not have the expertise to know what is right or wrong with Steam. I am guessing that your contractor did not file for a permit to install that boiler and therefor no inspections was called for… because the inspector should have flagged the incorrect backwards relief valve.
I had to stop finding what is wrong with that install. It was taking up too much time.
I will offer you a best practice design based on what i see do far. Give me a couple of hours to do this.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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That makes sense. There is a large company in the area that I know does lots of the boilers. If I need to, I can have them come and quote a repair to "fix" all the issues. I'm going to NOT run the boiler. It's not quite cold enough to even need it yet. And I'm going to email the company this afternoon so I have my expectations and their response in writing, and I'm going to call them in the morning to talk verbally.
Thanks so much yall, this has helped immensely.
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Do not use BTU numbers for the correct size. The way to size a steam boiler is using the Net Sq Ft steam number. match that to the EDR of your actual radiator count on the sizing guide.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Oh I see. I got 275 steam square feet, so two sizes down. I looked back at pictures and noticed by previous boiler was the same size, so I believe he didn't calculate and just went with the same thing .
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I believe that you have a counter one pipe system. That is why you have no wet returns. With that information the riser from the header needs to be addressed. So I would use a Drop Header to get the minimum 24" rise with the lowest header location for the system riser. To accommodate all the condensate returning from the two different mains, I would add two wet wet returns close to the boiler as shown. Those returns would then go the the Hartford loop as recommended by the manufacturer's instructions.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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You might want them to get you a smaller boiler at this point. But many inexperienced homeowners sometimes get the actual EDR wrong, because you/they may select the incorrect column of tube type from the chart. Someone that has actually seen many different radiator types will be better at getting it right. Nothing against you personally but you have only had experience with your radiators and not all the different types and designs that are out there.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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This is Page 6 of the boiler instruction manual.
…and it says that they need to count the connected radiation to get the right size.
That Weil McLain boiler sizing guide is basically a copy of the I=B=R Residential Hydronic Heating Guide (Pub. RHH) published by Air Conditioning Contractors of America (ACCA) referred to in the instruction manual
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Truth be told, connecting the two mains with a tee is a poor design for counterflow. Each should drain to the boiler separately.
That'd also eliminate the need for the left wet return in EdTheHeaterMan's sketch.
Since the header needs to handle all the condensate, it should be the same size as the mains and the equalizer upsized as well.
Aside from that, @EdTheHeaterMan nails it. Definitely a drop header.
I'd use both steam taps, but it's not obligatory.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
Follow up any emails with Certified Mail letters. You may contact the manufacturer's rep and see if they will inspect the installation and write a report of the defects. If they will not, you would hire a licensed civil engineer with the proper experience to do that.
In some jurisdictions, Small Claims Court can handle a claim of that size. You'd go to court with the engineer or the manufacturer's rep as your expert witness. Usually the claim is settled by the installer's insurer before any trial.
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@sjl1222 - Fellow homeowner here. I don’t work in the ‘trades’ but often feel like I might as well because anytime I hire someone I have to research enough to become an expert to make sure I am hiring someone competent.
I am sure you’re freaking out because you might not need your heat on today but you probably will sometime within the next week or two. Getting this resolved quickly without paying for the job twice will not be easy (Ive been there done that)First off, trust the pros on this site for technical expertise. I and many others have and they seem to love what they do so much that they can’t help working as unpaid consultants to strangers in their spare time
As suggested, politely get in touch with your contractor and assess if someone at the outfit is both willing and competent to fix the situation. if you’re very lucky that will end up being the case.
Realistically, you may find that its unwise to let anyone from that outfit in your house to fix the situation. So make it the priority to find the right professional who can, and quickly before you really need the heat on. Ask if the new outfit can share pictures of steam headers they have done. Pros on this site can help assess and you’ll probably get a feel for what you’re looking for pretty quickly.You probably won’t have a choice but to pay to get the situation fixed asap and hopefully recover some money down the line from small claims court or otherwise. Document everything and work with an attorney from the start so you know you are documenting things in the right way. Attorneys, engineers etc will all cost some money to get involved. Its probably worth it to make a recovery but its probably unrealistic to think you’ll get to the finish and get all your money back.
You also will likely have to make some choices as to whether to work with the potentially oversized boiler in your basement or to pay a lot more to have it completely replaced. Oversized is not ideal but it will still heat the house. Assess just how oversized it is before making that decision.
best of luck. Like I said; Ive been in similar situations and it sucks to see.1 -
So you now know more than the professional you hired, about proper boiler sizing. I'd probably mention that to them honestly, that will reinforce your dissatisfaction with the work.
As far as inspection, I doubt it goes anywhere. Show them the manual and you will most likely get a response something like "I've been doing this for XX amount of years…" blah blah. To which you inquire about proper boiler sizing and why they chose to do it wrong with all that experience? The piping is wrong, anyone that knows what they are doing can plainly see that. You appear to have a counterflow main, and the proper piping for that actually isn't even in the manual for that boiler, but some manufacturers do show it. Below is a screenshot from the Weil Mclain boiler manual showing how to pipe a counterflow main, yours does not match this. That said, the setup you have could theoretically be made to work if they didn't have that reducer on the horizontal. That reducer is creating a dam in that area holding some amount of water. No matter what, piping needs fixed.
You might get them to fix the piping. The boiler being clown oversized I doubt you get fixed, they just aren't going to be willing to do it, even though the amount its oversized will absolutely contribute to poor system performance. Stinks given all the money they took from you to do it wrong.
You understand why some of us chose to do the installation ourselves. I couldn't get anyone to even size it correctly, so I had zero confidence they would install it correctly.
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That WM diagram is missing some things (Hartford loop for example), but you get the idea. You can't drain condensate into the boiler steam outlets and expect the system to work.
The Peerless manual is also full of helpful information.
https://www.peerlessboilers.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/OnePipeSteam.pdf
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
There isn't a Hartford loop on counterflow systems, even Peerless shows that in the link you posted (pg 24).
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Makes sense as there's no return. Need more coffee.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
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Fellow homeowner here -- and when I our house was 'new-to-me', we had the floors refinished upstairs and down.
And then we had the downstairs job ripped up and redone on our nickel, and it was not a fun experience, at a time when money didn't grow on trees. But it was done right and it's beautiful and has made us smile for 27 years and counting. So I get it.
Your piping setup is... unusual. Here I'm talking about the existing piping that your contractor re-used. I've had a snap education in steam on this forum following some serious issues this past winter. And I've seen some whack stuff, including my own setup that we lived with for three decades...even stuff that isn't by the book can sometimes work OK. Other times, not.
Do you have any idea how well the old boiler worked before the recent work? The problems Ed pointed out are real, but it's still worth asking how bad things were before the recent work.
I had to look twice AFTER Ed pointed out the fatal mistake with the overpressure valve, but Oy Gevalt! -- that's a no-no. It also means no inspection was done, because no inspector, even if he has no clue about steam, would miss that. So there's no excuse for that, and it's a red flag.
Ed said:
Start with a kind and gentle approach.
That is good advice.
Your goal here is to come out of this situation with a minimum of further outlay, no heart attack, and a working heating system.
The goal is not to wreak vengeance on an incompetent contractor.
We're all incompetent in some areas... though in fairness, most of us don't hire ourselves out to do those tasks. But yelling isn't going to help. Nor is pretending that this is OK. Email is actuallly not bad here; it's low-cost, quick, and creates a record.
As KC_Jones said:
You understand why some of us chose to do the installation ourselves.
That's kind of my story.. I DID find someone competent, but by the time the dust settled and it was time to get to it, a LOT of work was already done, and all that remained was to install the new boiler and piping into clean threads. My guy didn't really take that into account and wrote a proposal for nearly $15k... I wound up doing it myself for about $8 and am glad I did, though it's been a long process -- and would not really have been possible without this forum.
I'm keeping track of my progress to help the next guy, so you may find my 'Peerless' thread useful once you're up and running, regarding subjects like surging and skimming.
I cut and pasted this picture to say, maybe this is a parallel-flow system with the condensate return coming in from the left... but unless the perspective is seriously screwed up, it's definitely a counterflow setup with goofy plumbing, and the steam (red) and condensate (blue) have to flow as shown.
There may be a way to redo the new (black) piping and fix the exposed old (rusty) stuff without changing the covered pipes. That would be a manageable amount of money in material ($6-800?) and hopefully labor. And it would be worth it. I wish you good luck.
cheers -m
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