New boiler, water flowing out of steam vent
Hey yall,
I've learned so much in the last four years about my boiler from this forum. Now I need a little assistance.
My 30 year old boiler started leaking from the tank, so we had it replaced with an Archer steam boiler. This morning I'm running it for the first time. Immediately I notice water hammers much louder and more violent than previously. Gurgling noises coming from the floor and radiators. Then I hear what sounds like water pouring onto the floor. Our living room radiator vent is literally pouring water out of the vent.
I wanted some help here because I don't have enough knowledge to know if the boiler installer knows what they're doing.
I read a few threads on this topic. I made sure this radiator was pitched back by putting a couple quarters under, and now it has a very mild pitch back. I changed the valve hole on top from the widest one to a more narrow one to let it vent more slowly. I decreased the main pressure from 2 to 0.5, and the diff from 1 to 0.5. LESS water came out, and it took longer to come out, but there is still the violent constant hammering, gurgling sounds, whooshing vacuum sounds, and the same vent spewed about 3-4 seconds of a steady stream of water.
Pictures attached, any help appreciated! The install was >$11,000 so I'm hoping to not spend another fortune trying to fix it. The attached pictures of the insulated pipe is the one going to the offending radiator.
Comments
-
Someone clearly did not read the instructions.
That boiler is not safe to operate. turn the switch off and call the installer. tell him to fix it before you need to call a lawyer.
If you did not pay in full yer…DON"T
If you used a credit card to pay, call and dispute the charges.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
1 -
Why is that? I'm trying to know as much as possible.
0 -
0 -
There are some things that a knowledgable tradesman knows
These are some rookie mistakes
there are more
To be continued
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
2 -
Greatly appreciated Ed. What a nightmare… Could any of the install issues be related to the water coming out?
0 -
Absolutely. This is an abomination to put a nicely. I would have been shocked if you did not have water spraying out. And the boiler water is filthy. This shyster needs to be tared and feathered.
1 -
Ugh I can't believe it… This is my first home and I have little experience working with contractors. What else is wrong, and what do I do from here?
0 -
It sounds like I might not want this guy fixing it, right? But of course I've already paid, by check.
0 -
This diagram from the manufacturer shows the recommended near boiler piping.
I added the direction of the steam and the condensate water returning to the boiler.
This is the direction of the steam on your boiler.
This is the direction of the condensate (water) on your boiler
You can clearly see that water from condensation will pool in the low spots of the piping. When that happens you will get banging and water being forced by the steam up into the mains and eventually come out the vents.
AND
And there is more
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
2 -
Thank you for taking the time to do this, this is so helpful. Is there anything else I need to ask them to fix?
0 -
how did they determine what size boiler to install?
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
I'm not sure, he didn't say.
0 -
You will need to ask them. You may have the wrong size. Here is a helpful guide to select the correct size https://www.weil-mclain.com/sites/default/files/field-file/Weil-McLain_BoilerReplacementGuide_WM2012-web_0.pdf. The part for sizing a steam boiler starts on Page 9 section 2
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
0 -
They need to skim the boiler. Until the black goo in your sight glass is gone.Thats oil from manufacturing that needs to be flushed out before the boiler goes into service.
As to your piping, this is what correct near boiler piping looks like.
Photos by @EzzyT
See: https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/198311/another-steamer-today#latest
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
Thank you so much everyone… How would you go about talking to the contractor?
0 -
I have no idea how to talk to a contractor who set it up that way… I will at least admit that the piping for the header and equalizer drip is original. I've never seen the like before, and I hope I never do.
The saddest part of it it is that it would have been so easy to do it right…
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
3 -
Mainly I'm wondering if I can show them this, or at least just the manual, and ask they redo the piping, or should I ask for them to pay for someone who knows how to do it to come and do it. I'm sure it's going to be a struggle either way.
0 -
start with showing them this thread, and the manual, and asking politely. Then take it from there. Not going to be pretty.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England2 -
Start with a kind and gentle approach. Tell them you have a problem with the new boiler.
Ask them if they could figure out what is wrong?
Ask them if they can explain how the steam gets to the radiators and explain how steam works and see if they know.
Ask them when the steam condenses back to water how it gets back to the boiler.
Ask them if your boiler piping looks like the picture in the book on page 17?
If you get resistance from the person who is supposed to know, then talk to the boss or owner of the business.
If that does not work, then you need to tell them that you want it right or your money back. Otherwise there will be lawyers involved. A lawyer can ask the state licensing board to look into their license to install plumbing and or heating systems. That will get their attention.
Document everything in writing. Get an email address and confirm every verbal conversation with an email like this.
Dear (Installer name here)
I want to confirm our (in person or telephone conversation) conversation today so I completely understand what you said. Please make any corrections if I have misunderstood anything.
We talked about the steam header and you said you would correct it at no cost to me. yada yada yada…
Whatever you remember from the conversation, promises made , denial of facts, will dos and won’t dos. You can also say that you are no expert and are relying on their professionalism and experience to solve the problem. You would be open to a factory rep from the manufacturer to visit your location so they (the contractor) can get another expert opinion.
And add this at the end: please confirm your receipt of this email. Thank you
Are you located near Philadelphia? That is where they make that boiler. I know some of the tech support guys there.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
1 -
Sadly no, I'm in KC. Again, I cannot express my gratitude for the time you've taken this morning which has been quite the stressful one for me.
0 -
I went through the calculations and got 66,000 BTU/hr, so this boiler is obviously over-powered. I know that will tank efficiency but I feel like asking to replace the whole boiler is a no-go.
0 -
Just to make sure all on same page just give us the total sqft of the radiators and then tell us what the sqft rating on the boiler tag is.
1 -
Can I get a boiler "inspection" to document locally the things that are wrong? Would that be another boiler company, a house inspector, or the city?
0 -
Unfortunately, the installer did not install the boiler correctly or follow the MFG recommended piping nor did they skim the boiler.
That should be your focus. Tell them to follow the boiler manual. The fact that the boiler is oversized is probably water over the dam.
The most serious thing that is a bad safety issue is the relief valve installed backwards. DO NOT RUN THIS BOILER.
Any installer that cannot install a relief valve properly should be fired.
1 -
You need to do the radiator EDR calculation, there are no BTU numbers involved starts on bottom of page 9
Most boiler inspectors (usually falls under Plumbing Inspector) do not have the expertise to know what is right or wrong with Steam. I am guessing that your contractor did not file for a permit to install that boiler and therefor no inspections was called for… because the inspector should have flagged the incorrect backwards relief valve.
I had to stop finding what is wrong with that install. It was taking up too much time.
I will offer you a best practice design based on what i see do far. Give me a couple of hours to do this.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
0 -
That makes sense. There is a large company in the area that I know does lots of the boilers. If I need to, I can have them come and quote a repair to "fix" all the issues. I'm going to NOT run the boiler. It's not quite cold enough to even need it yet. And I'm going to email the company this afternoon so I have my expectations and their response in writing, and I'm going to call them in the morning to talk verbally.
Thanks so much yall, this has helped immensely.
0 -
Do not use BTU numbers for the correct size. The way to size a steam boiler is using the Net Sq Ft steam number. match that to the EDR of your actual radiator count on the sizing guide.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
1 -
Oh I see. I got 275 steam square feet, so two sizes down. I looked back at pictures and noticed by previous boiler was the same size, so I believe he didn't calculate and just went with the same thing .
1 -
I believe that you have a counter one pipe system. That is why you have no wet returns. With that information the riser from the header needs to be addressed. So I would use a Drop Header to get the minimum 24" rise with the lowest header location for the system riser. To accommodate all the condensate returning from the two different mains, I would add two wet wet returns close to the boiler as shown. Those returns would then go the the Hartford loop as recommended by the manufacturer's instructions.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
0 -
You might want them to get you a smaller boiler at this point. But many inexperienced homeowners sometimes get the actual EDR wrong, because you/they may select the incorrect column of tube type from the chart. Someone that has actually seen many different radiator types will be better at getting it right. Nothing against you personally but you have only had experience with your radiators and not all the different types and designs that are out there.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
0 -
This is Page 6 of the boiler instruction manual.
…and it says that they need to count the connected radiation to get the right size.
That Weil McLain boiler sizing guide is basically a copy of the I=B=R Residential Hydronic Heating Guide (Pub. RHH) published by Air Conditioning Contractors of America (ACCA) referred to in the instruction manual
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
0 -
Truth be told, connecting the two mains with a tee is a poor design for counterflow. Each should drain to the boiler separately.
That'd also eliminate the need for the left wet return in EdTheHeaterMan's sketch.
Since the header needs to handle all the condensate, it should be the same size as the mains and the equalizer upsized as well.
Aside from that, @EdTheHeaterMan nails it. Definitely a drop header.
I'd use both steam taps, but it's not obligatory.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0
Categories
- All Categories
- 86.1K THE MAIN WALL
- 3.1K A-C, Heat Pumps & Refrigeration
- 52 Biomass
- 422 Carbon Monoxide Awareness
- 84 Chimneys & Flues
- 1.9K Domestic Hot Water
- 5.3K Gas Heating
- 96 Geothermal
- 155 Indoor-Air Quality
- 3.3K Oil Heating
- 62 Pipe Deterioration
- 901 Plumbing
- 5.9K Radiant Heating
- 380 Solar
- 14.7K Strictly Steam
- 3.2K Thermostats and Controls
- 52 Water Quality
- 41 Industry Classes
- 47 Job Opportunities
- 17 Recall Announcements