CIPP Health Risks/Sporadic Sewer Odor/CI Durability
We have a 70 year old cast iron and clay sewer line with root intrusion—kept at bay so far by RootX—that we want to replace. Traditional 4" SDR35 is our preferred method but is horribly expensive. So we are considering CIPP (Cured in Place Pipe) Resin-based Lining––much cheaper— that has become very popular but apparently there have been reports of fumes that have gotten some people sick from the process. Anyone have experience with this or thoughts?
Comments
-
Once it is done it will never be exposed to your home, the lining will be inside the pipe and will vent to the outside with the sewer vent system.
2 -
It's the curing time that may be the issue. Worker exposure, exposure through lateral lines (not a concern for us). I do understand that the industry has responded critically to the fact that some of the testing itself was not done with proper protocols or control studies, but it seems questions remain.
0 -
Its NOT cheap..in many cases, I've seen, on a residential home, it's cheaper to excavate and replace the sewer. Mad Dog
3 -
The problem — to the extent that it is a problem — occurs during curing, as is the case with any two part or thermosetting resin system. Once cured, there is no remaining problem. There are safety protocols for handling and managing the curing process and the problem fumes, which protocols should be used when handling the material.
Do all companies follow the protocols? They do not. Any more than foam in place insulation people do. How do you know that the company you might choose will do the job correctly? Ask what safety protocols they use. Better yet, ask to observe a job. If it's being done right, you'll see some pretty fancy PPE.
A tip: a company that does it right will not be the low bidder.
I've done several of these jobs back when I was being a field engineer, and never had a problem.
However… as @Mad Dog_2 said, unless you have some serious obstacles to consider it is almost certainly going to be cheaper to dig it up and install new pipe. Probably a lot cheaper.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England1 -
I very much appreciate these responses, even if the price perspective I'm getting varies greatly from yours. The standard trenching bid for our 50ft 4" line was almost 3X and 2x the price of the UV-cured CIPP bids, and I know the standard trenching company to be quite competitive with the other local trenching companies. I bid this out ten years ago and of course it was much cheaper then. Around here in Westchester the price difference seems to be a major selling point as well as the lesser disruption to road and land trenching. Is it possible that over the past 5-10 years the price of trenching has risen so much relative to trenchless?
Hard to explain the price difference. And the curing process I've heard can take up to 6 months. Both CIPP firms claim to use the latest, very expensive equipment. I'll have to see what their protocols are and in general what's standard.
0 -
If you don't get a sewer gas smell, you will not get a smell from the liner or process. Those fumes will go out the roof vents when the system is reconnected.
I would think the manufacturer of the liner kit has training and protocols, it's their liability that would be on the line for hazards related to a product they supplied. Maybe go right to their website for MSDS info?
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream1 -
@hot_rod Thanks. half a dozen times a year we do get a sewer smell in the basement but it is not from our waste being backed up. We have checked with our neighbors and sometimes a smell comes from a nearby manhole and they call the town to flush it out or whatever. So if the smell somehow comes from the main town line not sure how it wafts into our basement for a few hours max—maybe from outside through holes in our sewer pipe venting out from the ground 6ft below? or from holes in the 70 year old cast iron pipe around the foundation?
0 -
Somewhere in your house there is a dry trap — most likely a floor drain in the basement which no one knows about.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
2 -
@Jamie Hall Could that 'floor drain' be instead a hole in buried 70 yr old cast iron pipe, about 25 feet of which is buried in cement? We have also found that when they built the house trap they built access pit very small 11x7 x15D. The fresh air inlet is accessible but the hub that the outward trap flows into is buried in cement. But in case you say that's not it, then I'll have to look at the original house drawings—though from 1924 to 1955, house was on a septic tank. Perhaps if THAT was incorrectly sealed that could be the odor source, but why only occasionally? I should get this cleared up before the sewer lining.
1 -
If they have to pay to have the street barricaded and cut and repair the street i can see where that could be very expensive. Is the basin that backs up in a location where the odor could come in around the foundation and sill joint, is it close to the house? does it stink when you notice the odor in the basement?
1 -
@mattmia2 Yes I've seen some occasions where they barricade the street. There's a sewer connection permit, road opening permit fee AND bond, remove/dispose excavated blacktop, concrete sidewalk and unsuitable backfill material, then backfill with suitable material, patch asphalt and sidewalk, re-grade disturbed areas etc. In my case there could be as much as 10ft trenched into the roadway. Line is buried at various places 6-8ft.
Neighbors have told me on various occasions that when I report to them odor coming from around the area of our house trap, they smell it coming from the manhole cover in front of their house, which cover is about 60ft upstream from my house. But they don't smell it in THEIR house. The next time the odor returns inside I'll be sure to check outside near the line's entry point.
0 -
Although a dry trap is the most likely culprit, if you have a house trap and it is vented properly (that fresh air intake) the odour shouldn't be coming from anywhere downstream — in the house. It is perfectly possible, though, that the odour is coming from that fresh air intake at times. Worth checking that. Or, as you say, it could be a hole or damaged joint in the cast iron pipe buried in concrete (wish people didn't do that).
If you have the original house plans, you're way ahead of most folks! Check those over — it the floors were refinished by putting new flooring on top, it's possible some bright soul just put flooring right over a drain. Don't laugh. It's happened…
The very best way to find out what's happening is with a smoke test —but very few sewer contractors or plumbers are set up to do that.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England1 -
I feel like a box, a turkey pan, a piece of dryer duct, a smoke bomb and maybe some bricks could accomplish the smoke test.
If it was moved from a private sewer system to a public sewer then there probably isn't documentation of what was done there other than maybe some notes on a permit.
1 -
I'll try to approach this methodically.
1-Our town has several areas in this same line up to a half mile away where when you walk by a manhole cover or sewer gratings occasionally a strong smell is present. So if an intermittent town backup causes a rise in the pipe as high as the vent line and vent is thereby cutoff that could account for it—lasting for an hour or so before water recedes. My neighbors, upstream from us, smell it from the manhole and air but not from their basement. One thing I can do is go outside —when odor comes—and see if any of it comes from outside. Since we are on the east side of the street and the river is a mile or so on the west side, prevailing winds might blow odor to us from the manhole which is west of us but east of neighbors.
2-I should check the DHV to make sure it is not blocked by debris, etc.
3-When odor is present I can check to see if a trap leak or water recession has caused trap water level to drop below the trap weir, thus letting in sewer gas. If a town sewer backup clears then possibly the rush of flowing sewage in their main pipe could cause a partial vaccuum on my line and lower the trap water level.
4-Check Studor vents.
0 -
It is unlikely the backup of the main sewer clears with a rush, it probably is just partly clogged but still drains faster than the average usage so it fills up during peak usage then slowly recedes.
I think you posted about this before and did a lot of checking of traps. It wouldn't be unusual for a 100 year old DWV system (or even a 60 year old system) to not be vented properly and suck the water out of a trap somewhere under certain conditions.
0 -
McMaster sells these
As far as proper use to find leaks, that's beyond me, I've never done it.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
0 -
Couldn't you just burn the cable tie…
0 -
The amount of smoke that thing gives off for 3 minutes, no not even close.
It's very ridiculous. Like "oh crap what have I done" ridiculous.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
1 -
Hello D107,
the quicker way to take care of your problem is to hire a plumber that also does pipe bursting.
The old pipe is broken using a hydraulic bursting wedge by pulling the new pipe behind the bursting wedge as the bursting wedge and its swivel is pulled through the old pipe using a wire winch in the basement of your home.
The plumber/contractor will have already dug a launch pit near the sewer connection to install the new pipe as it is being pulled into the path of the old one that has been burst and pushed away. Once the bursting head reaches the basement connection for the sewer the bursting head will be removed and the new pipe is secure in place of the old pipe with no extra digging needed. After the pipe bursting wedge is removed the new pipe can be connected to the homes sewer pipe in the basement the same day.
A slab on grade pipe replacement would require a launch pit and a reception pit and no excavation between them to accomplish the same work.
If you have time visit the trenchless magazine web site to find a contractor that does pipe bursting in your area.
2 -
I think digging up the connection under the street is most of the expense of just digging it up in this case.
1 -
If the huge expense in excavating is due to the sidewalk/street part, why not excavate and lay new pipe just on your property, and use CIPP only for the section under the street?
1 -
Good point; I estimate that out of a run from the house trap to the mainline of about 50ft, the run from the street to main — is less than ten feet of clay pipe in good condition. So a combo of pipe-bursting and CIPP could do it.
0 -
there is one more way for sewer gas to get into basement. It took me a year to find it…a cracked vent and abandoned trap arm the failed after new roof was installed. Fixed it with lot's of jb weld with a flex seal chaser.
0 -
Why does CI crack like that? It looks like if that happened with a new roof that roof is due for replacement again.
0 -
no,the pipe is over 90 years old and the roofers were banging on the roof, around the penetration, to strip the old shingle, then again to add OSB boards, then again to install shingles. It was likely the vibration.
0 -
More likely, it was a sideways impact load on the pipe by the roofers. 😒
1 -
If you're going to do pipe bursting instead of excavating and laying new SDR, then I wouldn't even bother with CIPP. Just excavate an appropriately-sized hole on your property near the street and pipe-burst in two directions: one way under the street and the other way to your basement.
2 -
typically thermal expansion / contraction is cause for failure in pipes of that era; runs exposed to hot tub water commonly crack but it does take decades.
0 -
I had a rental house that I was re-replumbing the DWV. When I went to connect to the 4" cast iron Tee that was connected to the service, that CI fell out of it's connection.
It was stuck into 6" clay tile pipe from the 30's. Having a dirt floor in the cellar I dug a trench just over 10' long and was able to glue length of 3" SCH 40 together and work them into the sewer service. A tapered end was ground on the first end to jump over bad joints.
Eventually the pushing stopped as these were short sections of clay that had rough joints.
That was enough to get under the driveway and past a mature tree that some dummy planted right above the sewer line +20 years ago…..when he was younger and dumber.
Years later the rest of the tile was replaced with 4" PVC 40. That 3" section still carries a 2 bath 3 bd rm home with 4 occupants.
1 -
These CI stories bring me to a choice I have to make between either simply lining/replacing my main sewer line or replacing more of the CI line. The 70 year-old CI age is on my mind and I'd hate to line the main and then have issues with a CI line or trap inside. Back in the day (ca 1955) they cemented or buried the hub street side of the main trap so any such work would need to be done by chopping the corner of my foundation.
The photo shows the 7x11x15D main trap. To the left is the cemented or buried? hub. (The fresh air inlet is just to the right of the Right trap access plug.) Is the hub on the left a big deal to unearth for future repairs?
0 -
@D107 Send me a DM/cell if you want to compare notes.
0 -
Does your county have a combined sewer system? With pipe bursting you can use cast iron or the newer plastic pipe for the sanitary sewer; but the Westchester County Health Department will be the ones to determine which pipe can be used according to the national plumbing code guidelines.
0 -
Hello D107,
Cast iron is still used for sanitary sewer connections. A "CSS" or "Combined Sewer System" using a single sewer carries both storm water and sewage to a sewage treatment plant for treatment and later discharge of clear effluent into a watercourse.
High density polyethylene pipe and pipe bursting is used for the repair and replacement of cast iron sanitary sewer laterals that have been compromised by its age/cracked pipe or tree roots which cause infiltration of ground water and exfiltration of wastewater and odors into the surrounding ground.
A damaged pipe is inspected using CCTV/closed circuit television where a robot is run through a pipe to check its condition and if CIPP is the intended method the damaged pipe is pressure washed scraped and then reinspected before a liner is inserted inflated and then cured before any lateral connections are cut to reconnect the laterals.
With pipe bursting a robotic camera is inserted and run through the damaged pipe if possible and then a plan of replacement is decided upon.
The use of pipe bursting allows the contractor to install a larger diameter polyethylene pipe in place of the old pipe which allows the residential system to operate more efficiently as the new pipe can be larger than the old one and the smooth interior allows for faster discharge into the sanitary sewer.
I have attached a link to 2 youtube videos describing how pipe bursting is done for a residence.
1 -
Thanks much for that, very interesting. (Note that first video does not work; maybe I'll try searching for pipe bursting and find it again.) I think for a single residence 4" is considered fine. Since it seems to have a cable it looks like this method can turn 90º which could be really helpful if the new piping it's pulling can also turn 90º.
Good to get a contractor with a good eye who might detect problems in the pipe with just the camera even before a full cleaning is done.
I'll have to check on whether storm and sewer waste flow together in our system. Thanks again.
0 -
Hello D107,
If they can get a fiber optic cable with the camera through the pipe they will see everything.
The bursting head pushes the old pipe away as it breaks it while the cable pulls the entire pipe string through to the reception pit or basement wall where it makes the final connection.
Both pipe bursting videos were on the same youtube page. As long as the steel wire rope cable can be winched through the old pipe the new pipe will go everywhere the wire rope is pulled through as the tapered nose of the bursting head will go through the pipe whether it is a 15, 30, 45 or 90 degree elbow.
Here are 2 pipe bursting firms in Westchester County;
"The trenchless team" www.sewerrepair-westchester.com
"Twin Belle plumbing" www.twinbelle.com
1 -
Hi, I'd just like to add to the mix that you may not need 4" for a residence. With lower flow fixtures, 4" may be more prone to getting plugged up than 3". I built my two full bath & kitchen house using a 3" main. Passed code with no problem. Pulling 3" might be easier than 4" when using the pipe bursting approach as well.
Yours, Larry
2 -
0
-
0
Categories
- All Categories
- 86.3K THE MAIN WALL
- 3.1K A-C, Heat Pumps & Refrigeration
- 53 Biomass
- 422 Carbon Monoxide Awareness
- 90 Chimneys & Flues
- 2K Domestic Hot Water
- 5.4K Gas Heating
- 99 Geothermal
- 156 Indoor-Air Quality
- 3.4K Oil Heating
- 63 Pipe Deterioration
- 916 Plumbing
- 6K Radiant Heating
- 381 Solar
- 14.9K Strictly Steam
- 3.3K Thermostats and Controls
- 53 Water Quality
- 41 Industry Classes
- 47 Job Opportunities
- 17 Recall Announcements