Good or bad? Tubing
if it looks like radiator hose do I proceed with caution? I never worked with this stuff back in the day, Just need to swap a boiler
Comments
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That looks like heatway, I believe the stuff that does not have an oxygen barrier. Can wreak havoc on ferrous metal components. If there is a bunch of sludge in there that would be the reason. Lower supply temperatures result in lower o2 ingress so some low temp systems are still OK after all this time. I have seen the tubing degrade some over time as well. Generally when a contractor brings something like this to me I recommend separating the system from the new boiler with a heat exchanger but that is not always possible
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That is Heatway, tube and that version, has an aluminum O2 barrier within the tube. It is stamped right on the tube. The O2 DIN standard number should also be on the tube.
The barrier is within the tube not unlike how PAP is made.
It was also the vintage where orange epoxy was used on the barb connections with the Suretite clamps.
That 96 date code may still be the Dayco extruded tube. The failures seemed to start when Goodyear took over production, I recall that being more around 1999, don't quote me on that date.
How does the fluid look if you drain a cup. That will tell how well the barrier has worked. Stick a magnet to the fluid to detect magnetite.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream
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OK thanks all
Bob I'll assume it's good and write the agreement with some guardrails. if the customer doesn't like my write up, we can go our separate ways😊
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Question for you folks, and hope it doesn't hijack things. Understanding that some piping/tubes are not O2 proof (even though apparently these ones are), but just how much O2 can get into a closed system that is kept under pressure such as a hot water system like this?
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
There has been some debate on the topic here on these forums.
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The pressure has nothing to do with the migration, well, little at least. Temp changes the speed, but the movement is by osmosis, it will move from higher concentration to lower concentration regardless of pressure or temp, it just happens faster at higher temps and lower pressures. You can search and find plenty of systems here trashed after a couple years by combining ferrous components and non-barrier tubing. You can also make it work by keeping the system loaded up with inhibitor.
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yes, I have heard the hotter the temp, the faster it will deteriorate. I just can't 'hold the bag' with this old stuff.
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What @mattmia@ said osmosis
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I guess why doesn't the water osmosis its way out?
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
"Water osmosis its way out?" Probably can't because a water molecule is too large.
You'd best believe that oxygen and osmosis really is…"a thing."
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Maybe. There is some discussion online, but it looks like oxygen molecules are larger than water molecules, so that theory might be bunk.
@GroundUp has his doubts too:NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
DIN 4726 is the standard for the O2 ingress levels. If the tubing has this number in it it has been tested to meet the standard
Probably more info at the PPI website, plastic pipe institutehttps://www.en-standard.eu/din-4726-warm-water-surface-heating-systems-and-radiator-connecting-systems-plastics-piping-systems-and-multilayer-piping-systems/?srsltid=AfmBOoqYZMtnKEi3uW0P_DhsPBhuQo-ZjgRFLplLakDOTx7T0bWqlgRI
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream1 -
I think there is more going on than absolute molecular size and the state of matter can have an impact on diffusion. Water is a liquid and thus bound together by intermolecular forces whereas oxygen is a gas and not bound together by any significant intermolecular forces.
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Water is a very special molecule with very interesting properties. This has much to do with the existence of life on this planet. The only substance that is less dense in its solid state.
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That's not entirely true.
Some ice can be denser than water.
However, I am curious what some experts would say in regards to O2 being able to get through a material where water does not. Especially if the water is under slight pressure. All of this is way above my paygrade.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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The only reason there can be life on earth is because Ice floats.
I don't think ice sinks.
Unless its in whisky like this:
"Alternately, if you take normally cool ice-cubes from your freezer (-5 to -10 C about), and put them into some room temperature 100 proof whisky then the cubes will sink. Proving ice doesn't always float in water of life (Uisge Beatha)."
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It's the only one except for silicon, gallium, germanium, antimony, bismuth and plutonium.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
I replaced a boiler over 20 years ago. The original boiler was a GlowCore that has a Stainless Steel heat exchanger. All the near boiler piping was copper and all the circulator pumps were Stainless Steel that actually attached to the PEX manifold. The tubing and manifold system was brand name "InFloor". I found out the hard way that the tubing was not Oxygen barrier when I replaced the boiler with a cast iron WM GV4. In just two years the tubing was clogged solid with red mud. every tube every manifold, every copper pipe, every circulator pump was blocked like an old wet return on a steam boiler. Took me the better part of 2 days to blow all that mud out of the system just to get the heat back on.
To make a more permanent repair, I needed to add stainless steel heat exchanger to separate the cast iron boiler from the rest of the system. As far as I know, It is still operational today.
So even at low temperature, the oxygen in the atmosphere wants to penetrate the plastic tube to make the oxygen percentage inside the tube the same ratio as the outside of the tube. Maybe you can do a video on this after you research how this phenomenon really happens. And what is a micro bubble anyway?
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Ice can be denser than water.
I promise.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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You tell him Paul!
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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"only" can be a dangerous word, especially for bar bets
Your story is interesting, Ed, but I will reserve some skepticism that something else might have been at play. Other people who are actually looking for that phenomenon can't find it after looking for years.
Even steam systems completely open to the atmosphere don't see that kind of behavior of getting packed with mud after two years.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
@ethicalpaul said: Your story is interesting, Ed, but I will reserve some skepticism that something else might have been at play. Other people who are actually looking for that phenomenon can't find it after looking for years.
according to the results of this study,
https://www.academia.edu/51482995/Effect_of_Dissolved_Oxygen_and_Immersion_Time_on_the_Corrosion_Behaviour_of_Mild_Steel_in_Bicarbonate_Chloride_Solution The presence of dissolved oxygen (DO) increases the rate of corrosion to cast iron heating systems. As the water in the heating system releases oxygen to the corrosion process the amount of DO is reduced in the system’s water. It is not disputed herein this community. In general it is understood that the amount of DO in a closed system decreases over time and is reduced to a point where corrosion is not a factor in the system. If however a leak were to develop in the closed system, and fresh water with a high amount of DO were to be introduced on a regular basis, then the amount of corrosion will increase where there are cast iron and other mild steel components in the closed system.
I believe we can agree on this point as you stated in the past on September 13
“ethicalpaul Member Posts: 6,000 said on,
September 13 edited September 14
I wouldn’t drain weekly. (Edit!! Except you have a float style low water cutoff that does need to be drained weekly to flush it out—see post below)
The problem with it is you are trying to keep it clean, but by introducing fresh water you are increasing the corrosion and the “mud” (rust) being produced, ironically adding to the dirt problem,once per year drain just enough till it runs clear, and keep your ph at 11 which will also minimize corrosion and resulting dirty water
Something like that
Note That your subject line is different than the question you asked (adding vs draining)
Add as little as possible by ensuring no water or steam leaks.
The Laws of Thermodynamics apply here with a particular emphasis on Thermodynamic equilibrium where everything in the universe is attempting to reach equality. In this particular case the DO inside the closed hydronic system is at a lower percentage than the oxygen outside the system. Therefore any semipermeable material that allows oxygen molecules to enter the closed system will in fact strive for that balance. As each oxygen molecule enters through the semipermeable material, it will perform the corrosion process, making that water within the closed system reduce the DO and allow for more oxygen molecules to enter the water within the closed system. Thus a never ending cycle of permeation and corrosion until the system is overloaded with the byproducts of corrosion. What I like to call Iron-Oxide, or RUST.
Regarding the actual semipermeable membrane features of PEX tubing without an oxygen barrier is concerned, all the proof you need to see is in the systems where the unknowing homeowner or technician (like Me) installs a cast iron boiler on a system that has tubing without an oxygen barrier, and compare it to a homeowner or technician that installs that same boiler on a similar system with tubing that has an oxygen barrier, and see the results of the water quality over time. In accordance with Henry’s Law: osmosis naturally moves molecules across a membrane from the side of higher concentration to the side where the concentration is lower. So the oxygen molecule will penetrate the membrane of PEX tubing when there is no oxygen barrier. Or why else would they make such a thing Paul? If your thesis that the barrier has nothing to do with the oxygen osmosis thing, that caused my mud problem, then there would have never been a need to add it to the PEX tubing in the first place.
I still believe there is a video opportunity here Paul 😀😀😀😀😀
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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My wife's family and friends—- loaded with engineers, a physicist professor, and molecular scientist—-what type of person knows this topic best? I'll dig
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like gortex?
wait, what was this thread about? are we interfering with someone's actual question?
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Chemist
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Water can diffuse through gore-tex as a gas but will not allow liquid water to pass even though it's the same molecule. Good example of how bulk properties of a compound are more important than the absolute size of the individual molecules when it comes to diffusion.
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EVOH is used in food
packaging, even inside plastic milk jugs
But it not an absolute 100% barrier
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
”Plastic is not an oxygen barrier”
-Burt Gummer
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It's the same thing as a bladder expansion tank. You charge the tank with 12-15 psi of air and install it. Over time the air bladder side loses pressure (very slowly) to the water side.
@DanHolohan explains it in one of his books (forgot which one) it is osmosis.
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then there would have never been a need to add it to the PEX tubing in the first place.
Yep, it is an issue but I do wonder how much of one. We all know practices that are decades old that don’t matter in reality.I’ll see up a circulator, some pex, some ferrous material and let it run. Tell me what you’d like to see, @EdTheHeaterMan
as I said before, every steam system is flat out open to the air and it doesn’t get mudded up in two years. Will someone address that?
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
@GW be careful as others have written above. Last job I was on that had very similar looking tubing was a nightmare. I was there for a small leak and found all of the steel near boiler piping on a Weil McLain CG to be clogged and or brittle. Cast iron circulators were also clogged as were the three cast iron flow checks. Three of the ten or so loops to the hot water baseboards were no longer functioning. Homeowner, was in real estate and just wanted it to work as he was planning on selling house soon. I did the emergency repair and sent an estimate for a new boiler and complete re-pipe. Never heard back, feel sorry for the new homeowner. I cannot imagine owning a million dollar (maybe two million now) home and not being able to use three rooms.
@ethicalpaul I think I understand your premise about residential one pipe steam systems not clogging, despite being "open" to the air. However, keep in mind that in most one pipe steam systems, the smallest pipe is typically 1.25 inches. Without a doubt the most clogs we see in this type of steam system is where the 1/2 or 3/4 inch drain valves are located (could be on returns, boiler, etc.). The second most common spot for clogs we see find are on the the lowest horizontal pipe, typically a 1.25" wet return pipe near the floor. My point here is that smaller pipes tend to clog faster than larger ones (on steam and hot water heating systems). Don't forget a small percentage of steam systems are actually filled with water all of the time, as compared to hot water heating systems.
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We see steel wet returns on steam systems rot out too.
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@mattmia2 I was not referring to rotted steam piping, but I agree with you. We too see rotted dry returns, steam mains, etc. I was really focusing on clogged pipes in wet heating systems.
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yes certainly, but in how many years
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
in forced systems the rust trashes wet rotor circulators and clogs small diameter piping. usually the leaks are only pinhole leaks in things like threads where the pipe is thinner by the time it becomes inoperative from the debris and gets retrofitted in some way. like i said above it can work if you keep it loaded with inhibiter that scavenges the oxygen.
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@ScottSecor OK cool, I have my ups and downs but when there are questions (potential unseen glitches), I'm pretty good at covering my kneecaps. All of my agreements have general language that says basic stuff about 'existing systems', yet on these jobs I up anti a couple rungs.
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@ethicalpaul !!! The system I placed a cast iron boiler in had 3500 sq feet of floor. With 6" on center tubing, there is over 7000 feet of tubing in that home with 1-3/4" of GypCrete poured on top of it. That is a lot of surface area with a lot of places to introduce DO to that water. The Cast Iron boiler was a large piece of metal for that DO to act on. And those tubes were only 3/8" ID. When you compare all that plastic surface area to the amount of semipermeable piping in a steamer, I can see that by using the same water over and over in a boiler to make steam and returning that steam ot the boiler via the condensation that is running through metal pipes (some dry, some wet) that there is going to be less mud in those returns. Those pipes don't have semipermeable membranes that let oxygen in.And when the air in the steam system mixes with the H2O in the system… It is in its gaseous state… So the chance of oxygen migrating into that steam to become DO in that condensation later down the line is also far less.
You are comparing apples to oranges with your analogy. It happened in 2 full heating seasons, and the third heating season they had no heat. To solve the problem I asked the manufacturer of that tubing and they confirmed that it was NOT oxygen barrier tubing. Then I designed a stainless steel heat exchanger to separate the tubing from the cast iron boiler.
I experienced the dramatic effect of having non barrier tubing connected to a cast iron boiler. You can believe it or not Paul, I'm just telling you my experience. I'm not making it up. And the stainless steel separation fixed it. The Cast iron boiler is still heating that 3500 sq Ft home today. Now there is no mud on either side of the system. Nothing else changed. Removed a stainless steel boiler and put in a cast iron boiler. Red Mud after 2 years of operation. Stainless steel HX to separate the cast iron from the tubing. No more Red Mud. These were the only changes.
These are the facts PAUL. If you believe there is another explanation, then you will need to prove to me that I’m wrong and something else was happening. What is your explanation?
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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After 18 months on a non barrier, high temperature rubber staple up, this is what the sep looked like. It had an Axiom fill tank, so it was not getting fresh water added. This job has gone through multiple boilers, expansion tanks, circulator, and contractors.
Finally it got a plat HX separation with non ferrous components on the tubing side.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
This reminds me of HBOs Chernobyl.
"Fomin: Sitnikov, you're a nuclear engineer. So am I. Now, please tell me how an RBMK reactor core explodes. Not a meltdown. An explosion. I'd love to know."
Sitnikov: I... I don't see how it could explode. But it did.
Guys don't know why or how the O2 gets in or why it causes mud. But it does. They can see the results and they know how to avoid it.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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