Utica Boiler Near Boiler Piping Questions

SMRTK

Apologies in advance for the lengthy post and if I missed any critical information. I was not sure of the best way to post this as it is quite long. If anyone has any recommendations about how to better make these posts or if there is any etiquette that I should follow in the future please let me know. I have other questions regarding the controls and the mains that I will post separately, this post is strictly a handful of questions about the near boiler piping

THE TASK

I am going to be replacing the near boiler piping on my Utica boiler. The boiler was replaced in 2019 using the existing NBP that had been in place for who knows how long (the house was build in 1890, I do not think the piping is that old though). I have included a handful of photos of the existing NBP (end of the post). There are a handful of issues that I would like to correct, most notably the missing Hartford loop, moving the take offs for the mains from between the risers and separate them to supply the two separate mains (one for each side of the house) and to move everything from the right side of the boiler to the left side.

The piping splits into two main loops, one services the front of the house (6 radiators) and the other the back of the house (4 radiators).

THE PLAN AND THE QUESTIONS

1. OK, first step remove the existing NBP. It looks like I have one section of this piping that is wrapped in asbestos. I will confirm, remove and dispose of properly.
2. The boiler is currently piped (mostly) on the right side of the unit. I would like to swap everything over to the left as shown in the manufacturers illustration (and mine) as the right side is the opening through to the stairs. I have more room on the left
3. I will end up removing some of the main and return piping as well due to pinhole leaking and rust.
4. I will follow the manufactures instructions coming out of the boiler and up the risers with the exception of going higher as I have seen recommended by Dan and adding the drop header
5. QUESTION 1: The manufacturer spec's 2" pipe, should I size up the drop header to 3" as I see frequently done on these types of projects?
6. QUESTION 2: More slope on the header than the mains? Should I shoot for 1/4" per foot?
7. Once I am past the left riser I will be turning the corner and coming back along the boiler, take two main take offs then down the equalizer.
8. QUESTION 3: I like the idea of the king valves on the mains for blowing down the boiler. What is the best valve (type) to use in this location?
9. QUESTION 4: I would also like to know if there are any tips or tricks for the piping on the mud leg. When performing a blow down of the boiler do you mount a hose to the mud leg and direct it into a bucket, bag or out a window into the neighbors yard? I imagine this to be a messy process
10. At this point I am off to the radiators. When I come back I will be coming back on two separate returns (reduced from 2" - 1.5" after the last radiator has been supplied on each loop).
11. The end of the returns are illustrated behind and lower than the mains with an indication of where the main vents would go.
12. QUESTION 5: I have seen a number of posts and questions where they stack up a number of main vents in series. I have to measure my system to understand the size of main vents I would need, but is this one of those situations where more is better? Is it worth putting 2, 3, 10 main vents in series on each return?
13. I also need to replace some piping on the mains that has suffered from pinhole leaks and rusted through. Fortunately these pipes are right after the near boiler piping. More about that in a separate post.
14. Once completed I plan on having my local boiler service company out for the yearly inspection/cleaning and to review my work.

Thank you in advance for any input you may have and your patience with my verbosity. I wanted to try and get as much of the picture out there for review.

David

Proposed NBP (existing NBP photos and manufactures illustration below for comparison)

Utica NBP Illustration

They also show a drop header version in another document, I was not able to find that. The dimensions I am following (spacing off the top of the boiler for instance) are based on some of the information found on this site and specifically Dan's video on NBP. I need to confirm the clearances as it is a short basement.

Existing NBP

SMRTK

Aside from the items I would like to correct on the piping I have had water in the mains and prior to purchasing this house the water did blow out some of the vents. This was due to a faulty water feeder valve that simply kept filling the boiler. That has been replaced.

It does seem that there is a very fine line for the amount of water in the system and that it easily can end up in the mains and even out to the radiators. This is where I am hoping the extra riser height and drop header really shine.

Jamie Hall

The only thing I would add — and you may have covered it — is where the mains come back to the boiler they must be vented individually and then drop below the water line before they join to go into the boiler.

ethicalpaul

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1811713#Comment_1811713

That's how he has it in his first drawing. I like the first drawing better than the second one. Theoretically, I don't like a tee arranged like that for the left-most main. But in practice it shouldn't matter.

Question 1: With you new correct piping, you can follow the manufacture's specs. You don't need to go higher than the manufacturer specifies. You don't need a drop header. If you really want to do those things you can of course.

Question 2: You don't need more pitch in the header than the main. With your correct piping, you will have little and probably zero water in the header as long as your water quality is where it should be.

Question 3: I don't think you need to perform a high-pressure blow-down in a residential boiler.

Question 4: A bucket is suitable for periodic draining of muddy water. Remember, the more you drain, the more fresh water you introduce, and the more mud you create. Minimize draining and keep the PH at 10-11 and you won't have to worry about mud.

Question 5: There's no sense in overdoing the main venting. How long are your mains? They appear to be 2" is that right? This is not a large boiler—don't overthink it.

dabrakeman

I would just say on question number 5 it is not that hard to estimate your total length of mains at whatever pipe size(s) they are and get a total volume of air to vent just to make sure you are in the correct ballpark for main venting to optimize time to get steam to the radiators, particularly after doing so much good work on all the piping.

EdTheHeaterMan

You might have seen this back in the day.

Notice that the water line may have been much higher back then. And the room to make dry steam was much larger. with the new Utica, Your first diagram has my vote. for the same reason as @ethicalpaul. Just better designing practice.

Hartford loop has become a standard operating procedure, and the fact that you have much more room than the minimum 24" from water line to the header, means that you can leave out the drop header. The object is to get Dry Steam to the mains. By increasing the Header to 2" (or 2-1/2" if you have a 7 section) you can reduce the boiler supply risers to the header to 2" (the existing ones look like 3") you will be just fine. Watch @ethicalpaul's videos with the glass pipe on his Peerless. You will see that you really need to $@r3w things up to get wet steam to your mains.

Steamhead

What model PEG is this? PEG-112, 150, 187 etc?

SMRTK

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1811713#Comment_1811713

I think this was also discussed by Paul, the illustration shows that but it was hard to see from the angle I picked. See below. They are each vented and they do drop below the waterline then back up into the Hartford loop.

I am following the spec from the manufacturer here, however, is there any minimum maximum recommendation for the distance off the floor (or below the return into the boiler) for that drop of the pipe? See illustration below

SMRTK

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1811751#Comment_1811751

PEG 150 EID

I know very little about the variations between boiler manufacturers and model numbers. Let me know if you have any insight. I have never had steam before and I did not pick the boiler. I am not sure if it is oversized/undersized or right on.

SMRTK

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1811744#Comment_1811744

The piping may look larger than 2" because they came out of the boiler at 2" through to the 90s at the top of the riser and then reduced it down to 1 1/2" for the header. After that they did a single take off, went back to 2" pipe and split it for the two mains.

My experience is very limited, however this does not seem correct. Maybe there is a reason for it that I am not aware of.

I like the overlay image by the way. I assume that was an thought on how it could have originally been set up hence the current piping configuration? Or do you want me to go back to coal :)

ethicalpaul

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1811767#Comment_1811767

Download the manual here…it might not be exact for your boiler, but it's close enough. It is for several different sizes including yours. The manual will tell you lots of good information.

The height of your wet return doesn't matter much. I'd say as long as it's at or below the return port in the boiler you won't have any problem.

https://uticaboilers.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/240009937-PEG-E-IOM-Rev-K.pdf

Yours is 5 sections so you are OK with 2" everything. And since the same sizes are recommended even for the 6-section one, I say there is good safety margin for your 2" pipes to work well:

EdTheHeaterMan

Go back to Coal !!! Think of all that exercise! And you don't need to pay for a Gym Membership!

As far as the size of the boiler… That model boiler comes in several different capacities. The smallest one is made of three cast iron sections (think of sections as pork chops) your boiler has 5 sections bolted together underneath that metal cover and insulation. looking at the specifications you boiler can handle up to 391 Square feet of Equivalent Direct Radiation (EDR). That is the way we measure the amount of heat output a radiator can deliver. in order to see if your boiler is oversized, you would need to calculate the total of your existing radiator's EDR.

EDR can be counted by an experienced steam installer. Trying to do this yourself may end up with an incorrect value. Look at this discussion to see how a homeowner got it wrong and the professional got it right.

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/197805/app-for-calculating-correct-existing-steam-radiator-btu

It does look like you have done your homework though. Your diagram indicates the proper main vent location, unlike the one in this photograph.

SMRTK

Thank you all for your input.

I am going to revise the model and I will provide and updated visual.

Based on the feedback this will be my approach:

1. I will lower the riser height. It will likely still be higher than manufacturers specs
2. I am going to retain the drop header. Even if it is not benefiting performance it does brings the header forward giving me a little bit more length on the horizontal pipe that runs along the side of the boiler. This will allow me to keep the main take offs on that horizontal and not have to install the last take off on a tee from the equalizer as shown in the other illustration
3. I will not size up the header to 3"
4. I will follow the recommendations of header pitch from the manufacturer
5. I will size my main vents according to system volume once I take that measurement
6. I will try not to overthink it :) (This will be the hardest part)

Regarding blow down, water quality and PH
If I am not concerned about blowing down the unit every year I assume it would be OK to get rid of the two king valves on the mains along with the valve on the Hartford loop (circled in blue)? Those were there specifically for that purpose. 

What about the other valve at the end of the return (circled in red)? If I can get the steam I am supposed to have with the new NBP then there should never be water in the lines. In the event that there is I would simply take off the cap and let it drain.

My water quality is less than ideal (separate project that I will be tackling over the winter hopefully). Given the potential age of the system I am not sure what all is in the lines, maybe nothing or maybe a lot. I guess I worry about what may be in the system given these variables and how it may be affecting the boiler.

Thanks again, you have all been very helpful.

David

ethicalpaul

What about the other valve at the end of the return (circled in red)? If I can get the steam I am supposed to have with the new NBP then there should never be water in the lines. In the event that there is I would simply take off the cap and let it drain.

The red circle (and the blue circle near it) are both under water. That is the condensate from the steam. Everything below the water level in the boiler is filled with water. Or am I misunderstanding you?

If your water quality in the boiler is bad, that is easily solvable by draining and/or skimming (depending on why it's bad)

SMRTK

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1811773#Comment_1811773

I do need the exercise…

Funny thing, that is the only main vent. The other main does not have one. Technically they are both connected but I will be putting a main on both as a part of the re-pipe.

SMRTK

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1811780#Comment_1811780

They are both under water. The line going around the boiler in the illustration is the water line.

The blue valves at the top and bottom were in place to isolate the boiler for blowing it down. If that is not necessary then they could go. The red valve would only be needed for draining the Hartford loop and the returns, which should not be required after I complete this project. And if it is, I can just remove the cap.

The water is city water and often has a high chlorine smell. Outside of that I notice a lot of build up in my faucets and toilets that I did not notice before with the well I was on. Plus, everyone in town complains about it, mostly due to the cost. Either way, until I test it I will not know for sure what the issues are and how to treat for it. I will follow up on that later.

ethicalpaul

Yes I'm aware of where the water line is 🙂

But it seemed to me that you said that there shouldn't be water at the red circled valve, so that's what I was trying to clarify. If I misunderstood you, no problem.

SMRTK

Sorry, it is my misunderstanding

I don't think I need that valve at the end of the wet return line. I should not have to drain the return and loop. If I did I could simply remove the cap.

Removing as many valves as possible would save some money.

ethicalpaul

Yes that is true, I understand what you mean now. I still like a ball valve on the wet return at that location to drain just a little off every couple years. It doesn't have to be full-size, it could be like a 1" or 3/4" valve, not very much $$

SMRTK

I may not be understanding some fundamentals here. Wouldn't there be water in the line up the Hartford Loop vertical pipe and on the returns legs at least as high as the Hartford loop 90 all the time?

ethicalpaul

Yes, but it seemed to me that you didn't think so here:

What about the other valve at the end of the return (circled in red)? If I can get the steam I am supposed to have with the new NBP then there should never be water in the lines. In the event that there is I would simply take off the cap and let it drain.

You said "in the event there is I would simply take off the cap and let it drain". There always is water in there.

EdTheHeaterMan

Think of it more like this, when the water line in the boiler is in the middle of the gauge glass, then the boiler and pipes are all filled to the same level.

EdTheHeaterMan

When to close the King valves you installed on the main supply risers, and the return valve just before the Hartford loop, you can build up 5 to 6 PSI steam pressure in the boiler and use that pressure to blow out the junk at the bottom of the boiler 10 years from now. like this

You can even let that pressure build up and clear the wet return by opening that valve just before the hartford loop. like this.

But don't fire the boiler for too long during this maintenance prodedure , you don't want a fire in the boiler if the water falls below the minimum water line.

SMRTK

So, can I get rid of all the valves in my original illustration with the exception of the valve on the return pipe coming out of the radiator? If I am not doing this annually (every 10 years) then I am not sure I need to spend the money for the convenience.

SMRTK

I am going to go off topic for just one moment and talk a bit about boiler sizing since it has come up in the conversations. It appears that my boiler is right sized. I took a stab at figuring out the EDR of each rad and by extension the EDR of the entire system

The Results and The Approach
Boiler is rated at 391 sq. ft.
Total EDR of radiators - 315.4 sq. ft.

I used the following chart and measured each of the pictured radiators in the house. I counted the columns and sections, did the math and added it all up. I am not sure about the single column radiator in the studio, the numbers did not line up so I chose the one above it. A little questionable but probably not too far off. Maybe. The Bath 2 radiator is similarly off, it is actually 44" tall so I sized up to the 45. The pictures are in the same order as the table with the data if it matters

EdTheHeaterMan

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1811813#Comment_1811813

King Valves are a good option. Those are the ones at the top. You don't need them bit it makes building up pressure a lot easier when you need them in 10 years. Just exercise them every year so they are not stuck open when you need them. And it will cost a lot more to install them ten years from now when you do need them.

I would do the piping just like this illustration. Keep the valves.

ethicalpaul

But don't fire the boiler for too long during this maintenance prodedure , you don't want a fire in the boiler if the water falls below the minimum water line.

But Ed, we learned that the waterline doesn't move regardless of pressure, remember? 😅 Especially not with those valves closed!

Boiler is rated at 391 sq. ft.

Total EDR of radiators - 315.4 sq. ft.

Well, I would call that oversized 🙂

Ed and I disagree about the need for blowdowns and king valves, that's OK. You can choose.

SMRTK

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1811821#Comment_1811821

Yes, oversized. I think it was closer in the past. There is a take off for a ninth radiator that at some point was removed. I am not sure of the size. I will right size the boiler if it needs replacing.

Since Ed and Paul are at odds on the valves I may have to let my wallet make the decision.

Thanks again everyone, I will post some pictures when I complete the project.

David