Getting my 1924 system going again
Comments
-
And just a side note - if the system is really at slightly over 7 psi, that's roughly the static head from the 2nd floor. It's roughly 15 to 18 feet higher than the boiler pressure gauge. And 2.31 feet per psi, that's 18 / 2.31 = 7.8 psi.
Just a guy with an old house.
1 -
I'd be really surprised if whoever installed that PRV set it that low. B&G says 10 psi minimum on the installation instructions. You want some positive pressure above just head height.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
1 -
Yesterday, I found the electric power source for the boiler control unit, which in turn connects to the thermostat and the BASO A850-1. Photo of control unit nameplate below. The transformer had 20.5 VAC where it connects to the blue and white wires. I didn't get to checking voltages on the 5 or 6 terminals inside the dome on top of the gas control, nor at the thermostat and the BASO A850-1. Will do that soon.
Today's job was to get the pilot lit. It's been, um, a while. Forgot where it was. Finally opened the bottom door ("Clinker Door" on the photo below) of the boiler and there it was, still happily burning since probably the 1990s. I guess that answers whether the thermocouple and BASO A850-1 are still working. The pilot has a big flame, but I guess that's to help the boiler light quickly. On to that.
The boiler burners form a circle. See the photo below. It appears that the incoming gas is split into two separate feeds for the left and right halves of the circle. There are big pipes just below the two semicircular cutouts visible in the "non-burning" photo. They reach all the way out to just below the electric control unit, where there's some kind of manifold to connect them to the single inlet.
I used the manual lever on the boiler control unit (is that the correct name for it?) to light the boiler main burners. The right semi-circle lit quickly, front and back almost simultaneously. The left side took a while, one or two nozzles at a time. When it finally settled, the flames on the left side were smaller than the right and the back 1/4 of the circle on the left side never lit, even after 2 or 3 minutes. Door open all the time. Photo below.
Intuitively, it seems that the boiler would heat more efficiently with the whole circle burning. Is there a way to fix that - me or an experienced boiler guy? Or just leave it alone and carry on? Unless this is a serious safety concern, the cost of a complete boiler replacement is probably a deal breaker. It is, after all, my backup system.
And finally, what's the big diaphragm-looking thing between the gas feed pipe and the control unit?
Just a guy with an old house.
0 -
Just a guy with an old house.
0 -
The pancake thing is the pressure regulator for the gas. Modern valves have a built in regulator. Old systems before total shutoff was required had a separate valve and regulator and pilot safety. the reset button on the baso switch has to be pressed to reset it after you light the pilot.
The orifice for the left burner is probably clogged so it is underfired. this is one of many reasons you should have someone that understands combustion look at it.
1 -
Please stop and get a professional!
1 -
Yep, jets are clogged. The flame should be symmetric. Cleaning is fairly straightforward if you know what you're doing, but getting that burner out is a good deal of disassembly with a lot of ways things can go badly.
Someone with all the tools can pull it, clean it, check gas pressure and do a combustion test.
Do the water side work first and save the gas train for last.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.1 -
I know that this is further back in this discussion @clammy however that boiler may have been installed with no Pressure Relief Valve in the system at all. It most likely has an expansion tank in the attic that is open to the outdoors. That would make it an open system that does not require a relief valve. Now that someone has added a Relief Valve before the manual shut off valve does raise the question of what code does this fall under? The original installation date of the boiler OR the installation date of the B&G F3 combo valve? The person that installed that valve did not follow the manufacturers instructions by installing it on the wrong side of the manual valve. But is it safe to operate? One would need to inspect the expansion tank configuration to see if it is still an open system.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
2 -
@EdTheHeaterMan If there was an open tank in the attic, why the compression tank in the basement?
Based on the horrors I see around here, someone probably just popped in that relief, opened the valve and called it a day.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
Also needs a dielectric union or bronze transition between the copper water line and the iron boiler piping. Note the weeping sweat to thread lower right.
So, I'm guessing a goofus.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
The question also is if it was converted to a closed system and the compression tank added before or after relief valves existed.
1 -
OK, I'm all caught up now, this is the one with the closed system tank in the basement that has a garden hose wrapped up on one of the pipes that exit the expansion tank to make draining the tank easier. I can also see that this is a closed system. If there is no relief valve anywhere else in the system, then you may have a time bomb in your boiler room. You must make sure the relief valve is connected to the system with no way to block off the connection. (like a manual fill valve that is always closed. According to the CODE and the manufacturer's instructions, you need to remove the valve from that location and place that valve on the other side of the relief valve. (or move the auto fill and relief to the other side of the manual valve)
If you insist on operating that old equipment with no safety devices in place, then you may have a chance of a water powered explosion like this one. Mythbusters Water Heater Explosion.
Cool video unless it is happening in your house, then maybe not so cool!
You may have a problem finding a licensed and insured professional that will put their license, insurance and reputation on the line to over-hall that beast. I know how all that stuff works, so i might do it, but if my son was to go there, I would tell him to put his hands in his pockets, walk away slowly and don't turn back! and beside, I'm retired and the shop is closed.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
2 -
That PRV and relief are way newer than the rest of the system. IIRC there were relief valves in the 20's. Maybe with a weight on a lever.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.1 -
It's not a show stopper. Drain system, Pull PRV and relief, remove offending valve, install new PRV and relief, install new valve UPSTREAM.
If it were me, I'd put the new relief closer to the boiler. and make sure the feed pipe is wide open. If it's galvanized it could be full of crud.
I'd also replace the weeping copper sweat to thread and the iron nipple it's attached to with something that isn't a galvanic battery. 😉
See: https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bell-Gossett-110198LF-F-3TU-Dual-Unit-Pressure-Reducing-Valve-w-Fast-Fill-Feature-Lead-Free
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.1 -
Big thanks to all, especially to @mattmia2 @delcrossv and @EdTheHeaterMan. I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experience, plus taking the time to write thoughtful responses. Much appreciated!
I should have said at the beginning that I'm a degreed and registered mechanical engineer. I've had a long career in auto racing, blending hands-on work and science. By nature and experience, I'm methodical and analytical. And I've learned the hard way that just because you think something is true, that may not be the actual case. So - the things I can safely and correctly do myself, I will, because that's me. The rest, I'll be bringing someone in. More on that shortly.
The plan at the moment:
1-Finish restoring the thermostat. Confirm its wiring is good. Install it. Test to see if it will start and turn off the boiler, just running the boiler briefly. (me)
2-Get the parts to assemble the "hose bib pressure gauge". Use it to confirm the pressure gauge on the boiler. If both read roughly 7 psi, the system isn't pressurized, it just has the static head from the upstairs radiators and plumbing. That would seem to confirm that the PRV is stuck shut. (me)
A neighbor, also in an old house, highly recommends a "boiler guy" who maintains the hydronic systems in his large-ish house and the over-and-under duplex he owns next door. Both roughly the same vintage as my house. "Boiler guy" also maintains the systems in several large old nearby multi-story apartment buildings. So next, bring in the boiler guy.
3-General assessment of the system (Boiler guy)
4-Look at the boiler burners. I expect there are 3 ways this can go. #1 He says he can fix it and the price isn't a deal breaker, #2 He says he can't fix it, but it's safe, just not as efficient as it could be, or #3 He says it's unsafe and he can't fix it. If we wind up with #1 or #2, we proceed. (Boiler guy)
5-Replace the PRV and relief valve and install a new shutoff valve upstream of them. Thanks @delcrossv for mentioning that the current B&P are bronze. New flow: Water source>shutoff>PRV>relief>radiator return to boiler. Fix the weeping copper pipe at the hot water heater feed. (Boiler guy)
I can't find it now, but I think I read in Classic Hydronics that he thought it would be good for the boiler feed to come from the hot water heater, to avoid shocking the boiler. If that's a good idea, this would be the perfect time to do it.
6-Do whatever else the Boiler Guy found in step 3 (Boiler guy)
7-Fill, bleed, and test the system (me and Boiler guy together, so I'll know how to do it)
Your thoughts?
And if you need any help with suspension geometry, onboard data logging, pit stop strategy, spec'ing shock absorber damping, spring rates, tuning your aero downforce, cooling carbon fiber brakes, designing a roll cage, running a lap time simulation, or any of that stuff, I'm your guy. 🏁
Just a guy with an old house.
2 -
All appearances suggest it was originally installed with the compression tank. I'm intimately familiar with my attic and there's no sign of an expansion tank ever having been there.
Just a guy with an old house.
1 -
Sounds like a good plan. I'd not test your thermostat ( fire the system) until you get your relief and burner issues fixed.
Order of operations should be water, gas, electric.
Don't forget to drain the compression tank.
Regarding the burner, I'm betting on scenario 1. Disassemble, clean, test.
Son and I are building a bike for Bonneville so we may be in touch. 😃
Keep us apprised, we'd love to follow your progress!
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.1 -
I'd ask the person that you have service it questions about the conversion burner before you decide that is the person to work on it. The draft and combustion are all controlled by the boiler, the vent connector and the chimney as a system which isn't how modern gas appliances work. It is more like the skills of an oil burner tech than hvac or hydronic heating.
Unless you are feeding the boiler after it has been dry fired and is hot, I wouldn't worry about feeding it cold water wherever it is fed now, it will get mixed with the water in the boiler and nothing is changing temp quickly. On process steam systems sometimes they preheat the water in a water heater to let some of the minerals in the water settle out there but that is only because those systems are constantly getting fresh water added to them
2 -
Yup, strongly agree. My regular HVAC company says "we work on radiator systems". I'm inherently suspicious of that. That's why I'm leaning toward my neighbor's guy, if his background and experience is as billed.
Just a guy with an old house.
1 -
@delcrossv Ooh! Bonneville. Never been there, but always thought it would be a blast. The late George Poteet, all 470 MPH of him, lived near Memphis but we never connected.
Just a guy with an old house.
1 -
Registered Mechanical Engineer. That explains a lot…
that said, you plan of action has merit! in spite of you credentials. 🤪🤪🤪.
As far as using your DHW for the fill to the boiler, It can help in some cases, like for a steam boiler that is using steam for baking bread or other processes. You have a closed system so the amount of makeup water you are introducing is nominal. Cold feed water is just fine.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
1 -
Baby steps. I assembled the "hose bib pressure gauge" today. First, as a sanity check, I connected it to a hose bib on the house. Pegged it, over 60 psi. Google says 40 to 80, so OK.
On to the feature show. I connected it to the drain valve on the radiator return to the boiler. 8 psi. That is about 2 feet lower than the old pressure gauge on top of the boiler, so say about 1 psi more static head. And the old gauge is reading maybe 7.0 to 7.3 ish. Looks to me like the old gauge, all 100 years of it, is still pretty good.
To confirm that there isn't any pressure in the system, just static head from the upstairs radiators and pipe, I went upstairs and opened the bleeds on those two radiators. No water came out, just a little air hissing, which it turned out was going IN, not coming OUT. No pressure at the upstairs radiators, or there would be water. So, head only, it seems.
I take this as confirming that the 12 psi PRV is stuck closed and not feeding water into the system. With 60+ psi upstream and 7 psi downstream, it should be open. Correct? If so, that confirms that one of the jobs for "boiler guy" will be replacing the PRV, along with removing the old fill shutoff valve downstream of the PRV and installing a new one upstream of it.
And I'm thinking the PRV failed quite some time ago. Last time I tried to use the radiators was 2-3 years ago. Bleeding the upstairs then gave just a dribble of water, then quit. Probably me relieving the upstairs pressure (12 psi less 7 psi head or 5 psi, pretty easy to relieve).
Just a guy with an old house.
1 -
I'd replace it with a separate PRV and relief valve, plumb the relief valve so it has no valves between it and the boiler and a new shutoff on both sides of the PRV so that you can isolate the PRV to service it. I would use a PRV with a fast fill lever. If you get the relief valve up higher, above the hx of the boiler, someone might have a chance of doing a quick swap without draining everything in the future.
2
Categories
- All Categories
- 86.3K THE MAIN WALL
- 3.1K A-C, Heat Pumps & Refrigeration
- 53 Biomass
- 422 Carbon Monoxide Awareness
- 90 Chimneys & Flues
- 2K Domestic Hot Water
- 5.4K Gas Heating
- 99 Geothermal
- 156 Indoor-Air Quality
- 3.4K Oil Heating
- 63 Pipe Deterioration
- 916 Plumbing
- 6K Radiant Heating
- 381 Solar
- 14.9K Strictly Steam
- 3.3K Thermostats and Controls
- 53 Water Quality
- 41 Industry Classes
- 47 Job Opportunities
- 17 Recall Announcements