Getting my 1924 system going again
Hi all, new guy here with first post.
My house, built in 1924, has the original boiler and radiators. Bought it in 1987 and enjoyed our first experience with radiators. After installing central heat and AC in 1995, we continued to use the radiators as the main heat source until 2003. After that, we used it "some" every winter, for a while. It probably hasn't been used at all now since maybe 2015-ish.
Some facts. It appears that the boiler was converted from coal to gas shortly after the house was built. It's controlled by a Minneapolis Honeywell gas valve and 3-wire thermostat, both appearing to my (limited) knowledge to be series 10 of 1920s vintage. House is 1800 sq ft, only one BR and bath on 2nd floor. 7 radiators downstairs, 2 up. Gravity circulation. Best of my knowledge, the piping has never been touched, except for (1) when we removed, then reinstalled the 2 bathroom radiators during a remodel 20 years ago and (2) previous owner swapped
out big upstairs bedroom radiator for a smaller one, long before we bought the house. The boiler and expansion tank are in the basement.
I want to get it checked out and back into use. Apart from liking the uniform heat, the gas valve can be turned on manually, giving us heat when there's an extended power outage. That was a game changer during the one-week outage from an epic ice storm in 1994.
The last time I started the boiler, it only made a little heat for the radiators closest to it and the pressure gauge on top never came up to normal.
So, your suggestions? Or can you point me to some useful links?
Our new HVAC company say they service radiator heat, so I might let them take a look, although you never know how that might go…
Best to all,
Buddy
Just a guy with an old house.
Comments
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Very doable and worthwhile!
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I'm sure you're right. I just need some guidance. I'm quite mechanical, but I've got zero experience with radiator heat, other than an annual bleed back when we were using it. FWIW, I just bought Classic Hydronics by Dan Holohan to start getting better informed.
Just a guy with an old house.
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Drain compression tank?
Bleed radiators?
Boiler clean?
Burner working correctly?
That's pretty much it for a gravity system.
+1 on getting Classic Hydronics.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.1 -
Purchase the books CLASSIC HYDRONICS and "HOW COME?", From the Heating Help bookstore and read them and read them again before you go anywhere near that boiler with a wrench.
Is there an open to air expansion tank in the attic or are the radiators used to act as the compression tank??
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There's a tank in the basement. Shows in his pics.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.1 -
@Budward , where are you located? We might know someone who can help you with this.
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting
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You should be able to do this yourself if you have any mechanical ability.
However if you are like my brother-in-law then you should call a Pro.
You need to locate three valves. One on the expansion tank out of site on the photo.. another is the one that adds cold water to the system. The final is the drain valve near the bottom of the boiler. If you can locate them, We can help you. But you should still get the two books mentioned above, That is @DanHolohan retirement fund, since @Erin Holohan Haskell college fund is finished. (inside joke)
Some pictyures from farther back and at different points of view will help.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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You should find someone that understands that type of burner and make sure it is burning properly. In that type of installation the boiler and vent connector and chimney are all one system that affect how the burner burns. You can clock the meter to diagnose your current problem, I suspect either the regulator or the valve have gone bad and it is underfiring but ultimately you need someone good with combustion to look at it.
Also make sure the boiler is full of water.
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@Budward. Looking at your gauge, you probably have to fill and vent the radiators. I'm guessing that your burner worked or is working by the normal thermostat and pilot lighting instructions. If the flame is not happening, then go with @mattmia2's suggestion.
As far as getting the water side right Follow these instructions:
To start with, you need an empty expansion tank. To accomplish that we are going to use valve #1 to let air in the tank while water is draining out the bottom of the boiler #3. First thing is to connect a garden hose to the boiler drain valve #3 and put the other end near the floor drain. If you don't have a floor drain, then you will need use a pump or buckets to get the water out of the basement.
After opening the boiler drain, look at the gauge to see the pressure drop to zero. Once you get that done, you can open valve #1 to let air in the tank. You will hear the gurgling at valve #1. Once the tank is empty, You will hear air bubbles gurgle near the pipe that connects the tank to the boiler supply pipe. Now you know the tank is empty. Shut off valve #1 and #3.
Once that is done, you now can open valve #3 to put water pressure back in the boiler. You will watch the gauge while your helper lets the air out of the radiators until they get a small spirt of water in a can, then they will close the radiator vent and move on to the next. You will continue to add water to the boiler making sure the gauge does no go over 18 PSI. But must always have at least 12 PSI on the gauge. Your job is to open and close valve #2 as needed to maintain that pressure.
Any Questions?
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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I would recommend up grading the gas burner and check the chamber , The boiler part ( pot on the stove ) would last another 100 years ….
The series 10 , Replace thermostat and aquastat ……
There was an error rendering this rich post.
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Series 10 controls are no longer available new. You may find some available as new old stock on ebay or Craig's List. But that is not necessary, the series 80 controls are interchangeable with series 10 by just eliminating the R terminal and connecting the series 80 terminal marked R to the series 10 terminal marked B. If the calibration is within acceptable limits, then just leave them alone until they don't work.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Memphis
Just a guy with an old house.
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Thanks to all for thoughtful replies. Just so you know, I've got travel coming soon, so this process will likely drag out over several weeks. Job one will be finishing rehab of the thermostat, confirming low voltage feed to it, reinstalling it, confirming 110 VAC to the relay at the boiler, confirming that the pilot is still lit, and then testing to see if the boiler will fire up when the thermostat is adjusted (shutting off immediately if it does).
Any thoughts about that process?
The vintage Minneapolis Honeywell thermostat worked perfectly when I last used the system. A previous owner of the house had slopped paint all over it, so I removed it,
dismantled it, and stripped the paint. Not to worry, I've marked how to correctly reconnect it and I haven't disturbed the "clock spring" or the two tiny adjustable screws that time the Off and On of the thin and thick ears. I also bought two used thermostats off eBay for parts and as an undisturbed reference.
Here's the spare themostat. Mine is exactly the same, except for a fresh coat of bronze paint and my thermometer still works.
Just a guy with an old house.
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The drain and fill valves are both on the return on the right side of the boiler, as you face it. Also on the fill line, between the boiler inlet valve and the hot water heater are two red valves that look relatively recent. I take them to be a pressure relief valve and and one-way valve. Guessing these are both to insure isolation of the boiler return from the water heater, in the event of leakage from the boiler fill valve, which I'd assume would normally be closed?
Just a guy with an old house.
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I'm a little puzzled by the valves on the compression tank. There are two on the bottom that seem to me to do the same thing - drain it. Maybe it's just pipe thread vs. hose bib? I expected to find an air bleed on top of it, but no luck so far.
Just a guy with an old house.
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And finally, here's a closeup of the pressure gauge. If I understand it correctly, the big numbers are "differential pressure" added by heat and little numbers around the outside are gauge pressure to atmospheric. So the red "needle" on the gauge face seems to want 10psi gauge minimum in the system cold. @EdTheHeaterMan I'm getting ahead of myself, but I guess you set this in the drain-refill-bleed process that you outlined.
Looks like right now there is roughly 7.4 psi in the system. Assuming the gauge is still working correctly, at least it isn't zero, which is what I'd expect if there was a leak somewhere in the boiler, piping, and radiators. Is that right?
Just a guy with an old house.
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@mattmia2 I haven't disturbed any of the boiler controls, vents, etc. since it was working well when I last used it. Once I get through the thermostat rehab and test fire it, how would I know if there is a problem with the regulator or valve? Or do I just proceed with @EdTheHeaterMan instructions to drain-refill-bleed and then - if it makes good heat at the radiators - call it good.
Just a guy with an old house.
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I’m not surprised there isn’t an air bleed on tank. You may find a plug but my tank didn’t have have one. To drain it was simple process of closing valve between boiler and tank; attach hose and then drain. Be prepared for it to take a while since it will be sucking air to make up for vacuum created as water drains out.
Once you get it drain, you can open the valve leading to MPT connection to let air in. Just open it a bit so hopefully only air goes in and no water comes out.1 -
That setup on the tank is to make draining the tank a little easier. You do not need to do my first step from my previous post to drain the expansion tank. Someone else has made it easier. To start with an empty tank all you need to do is place the end of that hose in the floor drain or laundry tub.
- Make sure valve #2 is closed
- Open valve #4 and let the water out. Once the water has stopped flowing the pressure gauge on the boiler will be at or close to zero PSI
- Open valve #1 and let air into the tank. You will hear air gurgling into the tank.
- After some time the air starts to gurgle into the system, that means the tank is empty and you close all the valves.
- Now open valve #2 to to add water to fill the system back to the proper pressure.
The two red valves are a relief valve and a pressure reducing valve the pressure reducing valve is also known as the automatic fill valve. It takes the house pressure of 30 to 70 PSI and reduces it to about 12 PSI. if it is working properly some folks leave the manual feed valve open so there is always 12 PSI pressure on the system. That way, if you are not getting any heat from any given radiator, you can just open the radiator vent and let air out. VIOLA »»» HEAT!
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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On the gauge — the red hand indicates maximum pressure reached. The black hand indicates the actual pressure in the boiler.
When you fill the boiler, you want the black hand to come alive (it may be) and let it come up to about 2 marks above the 10 mark (about 12 psi). That should be ample.
And on the thermostat —those aren't the most sophisticated, not do they hold that close a temperature — but they will last forever. Keep it.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England1 -
Respectfully, no. The red hand doesn't move - it's painted on the gauge face. I'm guessing they want it to call attention to the 10 psi minimum.
Otherwise, thanks. All stuff I'll do when I get to that point.
Just a guy with an old house.
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That gauge was designed for the new coal boiler owner. An easy to read red line as the minimum pressure to be sure the boiler is filled with water. A zero to 30 PSI pressure gauge with increments that also start at 10 PSI (long before the 12 PSI standard was in place for closed systems) and end at 20 where 30 PSI actually is located. Also there are notes about cement at the base, and another note to read the instructions!!! Obviously the inability of the average male to read the instructions is a time honored tradition, that dates back at least one and a half centuries! LOL
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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OK, I'm back, kinda. After a few weeks out of circulation, I'm back on my original plan of finishing the refurb of the thermostat, checking voltage to it, confirming the pilot light, and trying to see if the thermostat will light the boiler. Then, I'll go through Ed's steps to confirm proper fill and bleed. As noted in my OP, this process has to fit around other priorities, so it will drag out over several more weeks.
Meanwhile, I'm reading Dan's books and going down to the basement stare at the system to better understand what I've got.
Here's what's puzzling me now - the two red valves. Yes, the one closest to the boiler is a pressure relief and the other one is a one-way 12 psi fill valve. The manual fill valve is between the red valve and the boiler. It's open (turned fully counterclockwise) , so I'd expect 12 psi in the system. But, the pressure gauge only shows 7 psi. Unless the pressure gauge is wrong (and I have no idea), that doesn't seem right.
Is it reasonable to think that the fill valve is stuck shut and the system pressure has dropped? Or there's some other common reason for the pressure loss that I need to troubleshoot? Ideas, anyone?
And a dumb question. Why 12 psi specifically?
Just a guy with an old house.
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12psig is the amount of pressure needed to lift water to the top of a 2 story house more or less.
Looks like that version pf the prv doesn't have the fast fill lever. it could be stuck.
Is there a manual fill valve? can you show a better picture? I don't see anything bypassing the prv in your picture.
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2 feet head height per psi for water. Give or take. So 12 psi is usual for a 2 story house.
I wouldn't bet on a 100 year old gauge being accurate, or as @mattmia2 says the PRV could be stuck or adjusted low for some reason, although 7 psi is very low.
I put together a handy test gauge with these items:
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Caleffi-NA10363-1-4-NPT-Replacement-Gauge-60-psi-0-4-bar
And
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-BRC025-1-4-FIP-Brass-Coupling-Lead-Free
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
There's no bleeder on those. Close connection to the system and open the hose bib side to drain. I See @EdTheHeaterMan 's instructions above.
It's also a good place to attach your test gauge.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
Thanks, @mattmia2. See the attached photos.
There is a manual fill valve. It's circled in red and is downstream from the 12 psi fill valve, located between the 12 psi valve and the water return to the boiler. The manual fill valve doesn't bypass the 12 psi fill valve. It's full counterclockwise, so it would appear to be open. If that's so, one or both of the red valves are holding the system pressure.
The fill valve and what appears to be a separate pressure relief valve (with lever for manual operation) are circled in blue. The label on the fill valve (separate photo below) says "Set at 12 Lb", but there is an adjustment screw on top. I haven't touched it. Yet. Does the lever on the separate valve (to the left and downstream of the fill valve) operate it manually to blow off the system? Or is it the fast fill? I think it's a relief valve, because it has an adjustment screw and locknut on top and a drain line on the bottom. I suppose I could bump the lever and see if water pops out the drain line or if I hear water going into the system and the pressure gauge goes up a little. I'm erring on the side of caution, but that doesn't seem terribly risky.
Is there any way to diagnose if the 12 psi valve is stuck closed? If it is, I'd guess the system pressure has dropped some from bleeding radiators, passage of time, and so on. I doubt that I have a leak, or it wouldn't still be 7 psi. If it's stuck, is the quick and dirty fix to tap it gently with a hammer and see if it opens? Or just replace it?
Thanks for the lowdown on the 12 psi. Duh, of course. 2.31 feet of static head is 1 psi. And I'd guess the top of the upstairs radiators is maybe 15-18 feet above the boiler, so that's 8-9 psi plus a little for good measure. Am I correct in assuming that the fill valve is one-way to prevent backflow into the water system?
Just a guy with an old house.
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No, those fill valves are not one way. You'd need a separate check valve. The arrow is to make sure the valve isn't installed backwards.
The second valve with the handle is your pressure relief.
Is your manual valve closer to the boiler than these two?
It should go: manual valve, pressure reducing valve then relief as you get closer to the boiler.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.1 -
the pressure reducing valve is one way. the relief valve has a lever to test it. the prv was added for auto filling, originally it would have just been filled manually with that valve at the boiler. i'd get a pressure test gauge that threads on to a hose thread and thread it on to one of the drains and open the drain to check the pressure gauge. you can fill it with a garden hose on one of the drains if the prv is broken. it can be rebuilt or replaced. i would get a model with a fast fill lever or a caleffi that does auto fast fill.
i would expect to repack or rebuild or replace a lot of those valves.
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The red valves look "relatively" recent. The flow direction is cold water feed pipe>12 psi reducer>pressure relief>manual fill>radiator return to boiler. The manual valve appears to be original to the system. Far as I can tell, there's no check valve to prevent backflow, if one of the red valves can't do that.
Just a guy with an old house.
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There's a spring and seat so it shouldn't backflow.
If your manual valve is between your pressure relief and the boiler, you MUST leave it open when the system is live.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
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They do look more recent, but hardly new.
I'd find a separate way to test the system pressure.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.1 -
If the prv has been sitting unused for years it very likely is stuck especially since i think that model is steel or cast iron.
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Just ordered the parts to make a test valve as you suggested.
Just a guy with an old house.
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Cast iron. The new ones are bronze.
B&G makes a combo that replaces both if the relief is also bad.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.1 -
Use Teflon tape as you make it up. None of the old boilers I work on have accurate gauges.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.1 -
That is a older prv/ safety the valve after the valve after should not be closed due to closing it in effect removes the safety valve from doing it job in relieving the boiler should it s pressure become over 30 psi . Those type of feed safety are available but I believe against code due to usually have a shut after making it against code . If the proper prv/ backflow is installed then a tee should be installed and a 30 psi safety valve should be installed . If this was indeed a gravity system and not converted don’t assume that all the radiator where full of water in some cases the upper floor radiators where not completely bleed leaving a little bit of cushion for expansion . As other may have stated the existing expansion does not have the usually tank style drain w dip tube at the age of your system I would wish you luck in removing the plug without damaging its thread in which case you will need a new expansion tank being most gravity system when a bladder type tank is installed will need some type of air seperators to remove the dissolved o2 in the feed water which means possible so repiping .It’s great to keep a antique going but as for eff I would image it’s quite low and that if removed and a new modern cast iron hot water boiler where to be installed and properly piped as a conversion from gravity to pumped system not only would the time to come to temp and fuel comsumpition would surely be dramaticly lower . Not to beat a dead horse there’s a lot more to a proper gravity to pumped conversion then just some piping if you would like your new modern boiler to have a long non condensing lifespan . It s more then cutting reducing the piping there flushing the decades of rust which always form in gravity hot water systems and installing mag seperators and possibly strainers to further remove . Your bigger expense will be removal the asbestos the boiler breaking and removal of the boiler will be far less costly then the asbestos removal . In the past I ve done a few of these and the results and speed of which the system heated where drastic and most had a mim of a 40% fuel reduction . Key is balancing the two mains ,staying above flue gas condensation and keeping the velocity fairly low in the piping .
peace and good luck clammyR.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
NJ Master HVAC Lic.
Mahwah, NJ
Specializing in steam and hydronic heating3 -
@clammy It's worth mentioning that the boiler and radiators aren't my primary heating system. I use the (relatively) recently installed forced air system nearly always. The boiler and radiators are primarily my backup for power outages - every 5 years or so, Memphis has an ice storm and electric power can be out for several days. The ease of manually starting the boiler allows me to have heat when the power is off. All of which is a long way to say that I'm not considering replacing the boiler or converting the system from gravity to pumped. Too much $$ for my situation.
Thanks for joining those reminding me to keep the old (likely original) manual feed valve open, so that the pressure relief valve upstream of it will be able to prevent over-pressure.
Just a guy with an old house.
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@clammy 's point is safety critical, you need to one way or another arrange it so there is a relief valve connected to the boiler with no valves between it and the boiler, that is what code requires for the relief valve.
Edit:
especially if you're going to run the gas valve bypassed without the safeties.2 -
Point taken.
I'm guessing I'll have a plumber visit in my near future, assuming the 12 psi fill valve is junk and needs replacing. That will be a good time to have them remove the old valve that's between the relief valve and the boiler. And also install a new shutoff valve upstream of the 12 psi fill valve and the relief.
I'm hoping to know that answer around the middle of next week, once I get a pressure gauge to connect to one of the hose bibs on the system and confirm that the pressure gauge on the boiler is correct at roughly 7 psi. If it's correct, then that confirms that the 12 psi valve has failed.
Just a guy with an old house.
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