Broken Radiator Union Valves & Vents

LegendsCreek

Quick update on my cracked boiler. Charlie came out last week to look at it and is going to quote it for me. He also found a whole bunch of errors in the way my system was set up, and other improvements that could be made. I am very fortunate to have this forum with such helpful people, and Charlie was a very knowledgeable and nice guy!

A few issues need to be addressed on my end and I'm hoping for more advice. As I mentioned previously, my house is more than 5k square feet, farmhouse style and long with 3 sections. The previous owners had it divided into different sections because I believe that they rented out portions of it to people.

There are currently 2 zone valves on the steam supply pipes (installed incorrectly), and have given me multiple problems since purchasing the property. We're going to remove them, which means I need better control over the radiators as many of them have non working valves with either broken plungers or missing knobs. We don't heat a portion of the house in winter, so being able to properly close the valves is important.

Im attaching photos of what several of my radiators look like, along with the radiator vents. Can these be services or fixed with replacement parts, or should I replace all the ones that aren't working?

Thanks!

Jamie Hall

It's worth trying to fix the stuck or broken valves. They do come apart rather easily… well, sort of easily anyway. And it's much easier than replacing them, as if you replace them you have to replace the radiator spud as well, which is a real pain.

The packing nut should undo easily. The bonnet nut (the square one) may require some persuasion. If so, be sure to use a backup wrench on the valve body (on the hex at the bottom of the body).

It's worth trying that first.

The vents can usually be unscrewed and replaced with new quality ones. Use them to balance the system. Most of them can be turned upside down to more or less seal the radiator, and reduce the heat from it to almost nothing.

Now. A word about closing off parts of the house to save energy. That's very attractive, but… keep enough heat in the closed off parts to make sure that you don't get any condensation. Typically holding the temperature above 50 or so works. Why? Because if you are getting condensation in there, all the fabrics are getting wet. Any plaster is getting soaked. Drywall is getting wet. The result? Rampant mold and failing plaster. Which can get VERY expensive in just a season or two. Repairing failed plaster in just one room can easily eat up the fuel savings from a decade…

LegendsCreek

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1810717#Comment_1810717

Jamie, thanks very much for the help. It sent me down the rabbit hole on YouTube this weekend. I learned several things, but the most important one is that you're not supposed to use the radiator service valves to control the radiator temp. I've always tried adjusting them to regulate how much heat I want coming out of them, and didn't realize that they should be either fully opened or fully closed.

I also learned that the packing nut (they've always leaked on me) should have some sort of rubber washer, and graphite or teflon packing material inside of it. So it's no wonder why I've never been able to easily stop them from leaking.

You mentioned the bonnet nut, and I've shared a new photo with an arrow. Is that was you were referring to, and does this actually come off? I couldn't find a single resource on YouTube with anyone servicing the mechanism inside there, so I've got no idea what sort of maintenance I need to do in order to try and spare myself from having to replace the entire valve and spuds on the non working radiators in my house.

Regarding the unheated portion of my home, Ive never dropped the temp below about 55, but if I am to be without that second thermostat now then it's a risk it could go much lower on cold days if I don't put some sort of temp/humidity monitor in there. What I was planning on doing was just running 1 radiator in the entire section, rather than the 4 that heat it right now to see if it would be enough.

I'll wait for a reply before I mess with the bonnet nut, but I've already removed the packing but, and I guess I need to replace all my broken handles? Do you know if they are universal? SupplyHouse sells quite a bunch of them.

Thanks!

mattmia2

There are both universal handles with multiple inserts for different broaches and handles to fit a specific broach.

@Gordo has a number of videos where he takes various radiator valve apart.

The bonnet does unscrew though it can be very tight so you may need some wrenches that fit well to get it apart. If you have all or mostly the same valve you might buy some open end wrenches in those specific sizes.

Be careful not to tighten the packing nut too much or you can split it. It is better to tighten it some, work the valve possibly take it off and add a little more packing, tighten it again and fill it littel at a time. If you dig the old packing out be careful where you do it and possible keep it wet because a lot of old packing contained asbestos.

Jamie Hall

You will only need to fuss with the bonnet nut if for some reason the valve either doesn't open or close when the handle is turned. If you look at a diagram of the valve, you will see that there is a washer — usually rubber — on the bottom of the shaft which is supposed to seal against the seat of the valve (in the valve body) when the shaft is turned all the way down. That washer can fall off… but usually doesn't.

Don't mess with it if you don't have to!

Steamhead

@LegendsCreek , if the house was split into two zones, why not install two smaller boilers instead of one large one? This way you have better control, and redundancy in case one boiler doesn't work. We did that in a church some years ago, and their fuel consumption went down since they didn't have to heat the sanctuary unless it was being used:

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/167918/splitting-a-church-steam-system

I'm sure @Charlie from wmass could put something like this together. He's one of the best.

Charlie from wmass

@Steamhead had they done a better job of splitting the system I could. But one boiler would be better for the system we are dealing with imho. System total is less than 800 square feet of edr. And its a 60 to 70 percent on one zone and 30 to 40 % on the other.

LegendsCreek

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1810828#Comment_1810828

Charlie did mention that as an option, but I'd rather not. I've changed the house considerably since buying it, and don't split it up the way the previous owners did.

The area I heat less in the winter is only 2 bedrooms and a bathroom which is used by family when they visit, and there's a door to separate them off, but the same zone also has 4 other rooms in it, and so I relied on moving heat from the other zone to travel to those areas when keeping that zone thermostat low, and it worked because I opened up walls and doors since moving in.

I think it makes more sense for me to keep it on 1 zone and close the valves on most of the radiators in the area I want to close off instead. It should give the house better heat consistency.

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1810823#Comment_1810823

Too late! I'm way too curious of a person and I needed to open up at least one of the valves to see what's inside. I only opened 1 valve on 1 radiator to see with my own eyes how it works. I've taken some more photos and there is no rubber inside the valve, or on the piece I removed. Is that normal? I'm guessing I will need to identify and order parts and check every radiator in the house.

Charlie from wmass

New valves. There really is no source for parts.

Pumpguy

I know nothing about your radiator valves, but I do know how to fix stuff.

So with that said, if this valve stem is free to turn, and it rises and falls as the stem is turned, and you can get a good fitting handle to turn the stem, then all you need is a good fitting heat resistant rubber washer to fit in that recess. Oh yes, you will also need to replace the packing that surrounds the stem.

A good source for the packing is Ace Hardware's #40209 Graphite packing. One packet should be enough to repack all your valve stems.

For heat resistant rubber, I would recommend Ethylene Propylene which is good for 300* F. I have some scraps in 1/8 and 3/16" thickness I could send you which you could cut to size. That is, IF the Post Office will do their job and deliver the mail, something I'm having a real problem with these days.

Of course, as @Charlie from wmass says, New valves are the best answer, but may be more difficult to find and change out.

Hope this reply is helpful.

mattmia2

There used to be a rubber or leather washer under that nut that long ago disintegrated. Should be a standard part or you could cut it out of neoprene or fluoroelastomer or teflon sheet if that isn't a standard size washer. Can clean the parts with a wire brush in a drill if you need to. I'd use a stainless or brass nut to replace the existing if it isn't already brass.

mattmia2

You can also buy string packing form mcmaster-carr in many sized and in a spool instead of the short lengths on a card. I'd use teflon for those.

mattmia2

Put a little dope or teflon take on the threads of the bonnet to help it come apart next time.

Jamie Hall

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1810841#Comment_1810841

The washer was probably leather originally — but a rubber washer (flat) will do. Almost any larger hardware store should have them. It fits inside the outer ring and over the nut — which, ideally, you should remove so it will slip over. That may be easier said than done — I suspect on that one the screw has to come out first…

LegendsCreek

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1810840#Comment_1810840

Thanks very much for the offer! I bought a sample replacement handle to test first. If I am able to move the stem with the new handle then I may want to try installing a new gasket. I'll keep you posted. The last thing I want to do is replace all the valves, but I may only have to do it for the ones I plan on keeping off, and I'll just leave all the others as is.

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1810845#Comment_1810845

Thanks again! None of the hardware stores within an hour of me will carry an assortment of rubber washers to choose from, but there is a Home Depot and FW Webb in Rutland which is about an hour from me. I'd prefer to buy them online, but finding proper specs is always a pita. And you're right.. that flat head screw may be trouble, but I can try a torch and some grease.

mattmia2

You can measure with a micrometer or caliper and order washers from mcmaster-carr. You can always make the hole in the middle bigger if you have to. Teflon will last forever but it might not be soft enough to seal fully.

Once you have the bonnet off you can loosen the packing nut and work the stem loose with a wrench then you can take the stem out and clean with a wire wheel or fine scotchbrite and clean up the threads and then put it back together with a little silicone grease and you should be able to get them working if you're careful about not forcing anything to mcuh.

Jamie Hall

That last comment should have been in bold italic, @mattmia2 . Don't be a gorilla! There is a time and place for three foot wrenches — but valves isn't one of them.