Trane Vapor system?

Workdaddy

Hi guys, looking for a little help regarding a job our comfort advisor looked at the other day. Client called for a boiler replacement, feels he is spending too much money on oil. Our advisor came back with these photos, and I am not 100% sure what we have; and how to proceed; honestly. I am a wethead (Bruce Perry is my real name); and looked through my collection of Dan's steam books, but can't find this system exactly as I see it. Will be making a site visit myself this week; to gather more info. Customer says house the 3,000sq ft house was built in late 1800s, and he bought it 3 years ago. Previous owners were elderly, lived in only one part of home and used a wood stove to heat; so system was abandoned for quite a few years. Current owner has had steam main vents replace and some other things on the boiler. One radiator does not work (steam trap issue I would imagine), but house heats well. Spent $1500 a month in oil last winter so thats why he called.

EdTheHeaterMan

This looks like something that @DanHolohan should chime in on.

I'm not sure that a replacement boiler will save any $$$ in operating cost. Although there may be some operational adjustments that may provide some savings.

What is the operating pressure (not the pressuretrol settings, the actual operating pressure? It appears that there is a combination gauge on the boiler. Does it actually go into vacuum during a call for heat?

DanHolohan

That’s a Trane boiler-return trap. I’d check the air vent at its top. It’s the main vent for the whole system. Also, look for any cross-over traps to the dry return at the end of the mains.

Jamie Hall

@EdTheHeaterMan 's casual comment is critical: replacing the boiler may save a little oil but not a whole lot. That isn't a bad boiler, and the near boiler piping isn't bad either — not quite right, but not that bad.

That said, making sure that main vent and all the traps (particularly the crossovers) are working right, and also making one minor change on the boiler will do just as well. The minor change is that you should add a Vaporstat, and set it to cut the boiler out at 8 OUNCES with a cutin at 4 ounces or so. You can keep the pressuretrol as a backup safety, oif course. That minor change will save oil —not a ton, but significant.

If they want to save money — and I agree that that bill is a bit daunting, though honestly about what Cedric takes in the winter months — the place for them to start is tightening up the envelope of the house. Unless they have modern windows, triple track or inner storm windows will help a lot. If they have modern windows, they made need replacement. Insulation on a house of that age is problematic, but the attic might use some; see what's up there (if anything!).

EdTheHeaterMan

EDIT: I was typing this when @Jamie Hall posted above. I agree with his assessment of the insulation and windows. Seal the envelope

Will a new boiler save on operating cost? Or can this boiler be made to operate at a vacuum and be more economical @DanHolohan? If I were to quote a new piece of equipment only to find thatcustomer ends up with the same operating cost, I would not like dealing with that customer. And that customer would have a legitimate gripe.

EdTheHeaterMan

You got to love the dual copper riser, with swing joints made with radiator hose

Steamhead

There may not be a vent on top of that return trap, depending on which version it is. Most of the ones we see in the Baltimore area have vents at the ends of the steam mains and dry returns. Once in a while we see one with F&T traps on the ends of the steam mains, but that's rather unusual.

mattmia2

I cant' tell what is going on with the boiler piping but it doesn't look like that header leaves anyplace for the water that is mixed with the steam to go other than in the mains.

Does the system bang or anything like that?

Look carefully at what happens at the ends of the mains. How does condensate get back to the boiler? how does air get out? Are there drips at the ends of the mains? Are they connected only below the water line so they aren't connecting the mains together through the return? Are there crossover traps at the ends of the mains? Do they work?

Are the returns relatively cool or are they hot because a failed trap is letting steam in to the returns?

Do the returns get hot before the mains because the near boiler piping is throwing hot water in to the mains that is then returning through the returns?

Jamie Hall

I agree with @EdTheHeaterMan — a new boiler may save a little on operating cost — maybe as much as 10% — but the real gains are going to come from tightening up the envelope on the one hand and making sure the system is working as well as it can on the other. Get the pressure down into the vapour range and make sure all the bits and pieces are working — or even still there.

bburd

Insulate those steam pipes as well! 1 inch fiberglass.

mattmia2

It could be worth doing a heat loss calculation to figure out how much fuel it is using compared to how much heat it should be losing, I certainly wouldn't use it to predict you'll save this much but it will give you an idea of if the system is performing relatively well or if it is sending a lot more up the flue than it should. It will also tell you where the best improvements to the envelope are.

Workdaddy

Thanks everyone for the advice so far. I hope to get out to the job soon to get a look for myself and answer some of your questions. So what I can tell you, the attic apparently is not insulated at all, prior owner ripped out all insulation. I believe he will be spray foaming the attic near future. The Trane unit does not appear to have a trap on top, but will verify. My comfort advisor says there are steam main vents, fairly new too. Not sure about crossovers. The condensate is actually not off the header, looks like its off one of the steam mains lol. I am uploading a pic of that now. I also have one that shows the header better, the hose and clamps are for repairing leaks apparently!!

mattmia2

If i remember the Trane return trap is just a fancy way of making a u bend of a certain depth that fills with water and if the differential between the supply and the return exceeds the weight of that column of water it lets some steam in to the return to equalize the pressures(or reduce the differential at least) to allow the condensate to return to the boiler.

clammy

The near boiler piping is awful and nothing close to what the manufactures diagram that is shown in the installation and operation manual . The way it is piped this boiler cannot produce steam as dry as your system deserves to perform properly . Both outlet tapping on the boiler should have been used and the piping should not be copper. If your home comfort advisor didn 't point that out then he is the wrong guy to give advice on a close to 100 year old vapor system . Aside from the near boiler piping being terrible this system should be operated w a vapor stat. The hartford loop nipple should not be long they should have used a street ell. As for where and what to start w i would suggest opening up the check valves on the wet return and flush the mud out of ,next i would open the wet side of the boiler and flush out the mud and muck and rust from the water side of the boiler ,remove and clean the sight glass assemble and clean the low water probe ,the pig tail and piping into the boiler should also be removed and cleaned and flushed .It would also be smart to remove the boilers safety valve and clean it's piping being there usually totally plug thats if ya check it . I would remove the flue collector and open the boiler up and clean the combustion chamber to ensure that it is not full of junk . While your at it have the filter noz and strainer replaced and a combustion test done . A edr of your connected radiator would be a good idea from that you ll be able to determine if the boler is correctly sized and firing the correct gpm for your system . A quick side note is that the trane return trap should have a equalizer line from the steam side of the system and usually they had a vapor vacuum air vent located on the top so as the system cooled it would go into a vacuum and still produce lower temp steam . As for radiator traps from the photo the one looks a bit newer as compared to the original trane trap in the pic.

As a side note steam mains without insulation over heat basements and over time the excessive condensate produced usually starts to grove the bottom of the piping and over time causes leaks at the threaded joints which usually is a semi expensive repair when done w the correct material steel . Insulating steam mains is key to timely steam distribution ,dry steam moves wet steam collapses doing just about zero work and creates vacuum pockets as it does so ,another quick side note is that all of the supply valves if original are usually always a graduated orifice valve ,issue to occur when they have been update to non gradated type valves being orificed valves are hard to locate these days and usally a stanfard valve and a orifice plates are used .

I have a general though that just about everyone who has a two pipe system that's 100 years old would rather give a kidney then replace and update traps to have the system function correctly . i guess there suppose to last forever .Not , and not to point out the completely obvious but zero insulation on steam piping equal a blazing hot basement lack luster steam distribution at the best but one thing for sure is that you shall have high fuel bills and it is not the boilers fault or the building it 's just a lack luster comfort adviser . Personally if i called myself that i would want to be dead it kinda of seems like a carpet bagger term ,i always settle for knuckle dragging piping wrencher who just happens to not be clueless after 40 years of spinning but as its said as long as your comfortable w what there selling then listen .

anyone who states that the boiler is piped correctly and does not need to be re piped according to the manufactures diagrams is not anyone who is really going to bring the system back to the way it was intended to operate and heat the home .A super quick looksee tells me that a proper repipe removing the bull headed tee and installing a proper header using both riser would most likely be out of the $ range most think it will cost ,plus no one will every look at the heating system its the kitchens and bath that get the money being heats used like what 4 months top . Being i always like telling the truth being it does not change much ever in mechanical things possibly look at a big update and switch to hot water or ac and heat system but that's usually even more $ then re piping and repair and insulating . None will say but owning older homes is expensive and finding the right gentlemen to evaluate the system and be honest about it is usually at best difficult being its a hard to be the guy not dilly dallying and telling the truth and being honest about costs will usually lead to not getting the job . A honest contractor might be lured on a time and material over just giving you a wopper of a price being old system things are not usually cut and dry and alot of time is spent just on running the system and seeing where the real issues are and coming up w a game plan . i see the 845 area code which makes sense being the work looks pretty standard for the area being i am the next area code over and see alot of price driven jobs like yours being everybody got eat . I hope non of this seem offensive but i tell it like it is no cotton candy coating

i recently spoke w another contractor and asked how things where going and he stated he knows how actors feel being he does 100 proposals and only gets a bit parts and not the big break lol

peace and good luck clammy

EdTheHeaterMan

@clammy … I think you have a misunderstanding about the people in this discussion. The Comfort Advisor in this discussion sounds line a fancy name for the salesman that works for @Workdaddy. @Workdaddy is the boss and was given these pictures by his employee in order to get input on how to proceed. I'm thinking that the comfort advisor did a great job in getting so many details with the limited knowledge of that type of system. I also believe that he may not know if there is even a chance of operating cost savings, so he differs to the person with greater knowledge and has to stand behind any claims of savings. At least that is the way I understood it.

But all your other technical observations are correct. However, the fact that the system is operating and at least without so much noise that makes it unbearable, goes to the fact that the imperfect design by someone in the past, does not make for all the doom and gloom that others find when a system is installed properly and the rest of the system (pipe pitch, traps, vents and the like) are where the problem lies. Replacing the boiler will not fix all the other problems and therefore should not be the first step in solving problems.

Respectfully submitted

Mr. Ed

Workdaddy

Just to clarify, I'm the service manager and the guy with the steam/hydronics background my coworkers go to when they see something a bit different. The "salesman" did point out the home owner the copper header, lack of insulation,leaks, non working steam traps etc..but the Trane return unit was something new to both of us. Anyway, appreciate all your input guys, heading to customer next week to get followup info with the newly acquired knowledge!

Workdaddy

Had the opportunity to go back to the customers home. Ran the system for about 1/2 hour. No surging, no hammering, and a few radiators not getting hot at end of mains. A couple of them seemed as if the steam trap never closed. Took a few more photos for clarification. I think we will start with rebuilding all the steam traps (most likely never done), steam main vents were recently replaced. I am attaching some photos; to hopefully answer some of your earlier questions. Thank you for all your help guys.

mattmia2

Failed open traps will let steam in to the returns and keep other radiators other than the one with the failed trap from venting and heating.

Steamhead

First thing to do is change that vent on the dry return. It looks like a Hoffman #75- use a Gorton #2, and I bet those end radiators heat better. Also, are there any vents at the ends of the steam mains?

Jamie Hall

And the second thing is to install a vaporstat set at 8 ounce cutout and 4 ounce cutin…