Reasonable charge?

Larry (from OSHA)

No pricing will be involved here. I bought a top of the line AC system 2 years ago and negotiated a 10 year warranty on all parts, labor and refrigerant. Last year the blower stopped communicating with the control board intermittently and since it was mostly working, we agreed to hold off replacing the blower and board until it got worse. So it locked out a couple of weeks ago and during some pretty hot weather. The blower and board were replaced one week ago for no charge. Yesterday it did the same thing and quit working. Today the technician came and unplugged and plugged back in the Molex connector between the motor and board and the unit came back to life. He ordered a new harness and wanted to charge me a trip charge.

So that's the long winded explanation. My question is do you think I should have to pay a trip charge for warranty work and since I didn't get charged the trip charge before, I would hope the company would be both consistent and if they planned to charge me anything, I think it would it be proper to let me know up front.

Thanks for any opinions.

Larry

Larry Weingarten

Hi, If you have it in writing that you "negotiated a 10 year warranty on all parts, labor and refrigerant", than I see no way they can bill you a trip charge. It just seems to me that would be considered labor.

Yours, Larry

STEAM DOCTOR

Agree with Larry. No brainer.

hot_rod

A warranty from a 3rd party, the manufacturer, or the installing contractor?

If there is an actual contract, does it spell out travel time charges?

Larry (from OSHA)

Thanks for all comments.

Manufacturers warranty on compressor and parts. Installing contractors warranty on labor and refrigerant. As far as I recall, no specific language on those specifics. Warranty items listed as a bullet point on the bid/invoice. I should really know better than to assume anything.

When I was working, I didn't trust anyone and if not in writing, it didn't happen. I guess I'm slipping in my retired, old age.

ChrisJ

@Larry (from OSHA)
What's going to stink even more is I highly doubt that harness is going to solve your issue.

Something else seems to be going on and I doubt it's a short length of wire inside a unit unless it had obvious physical damage to it.

Mad Dog_2

Can you elaborate on "negotiated" ? Mad Dog 🐕

HVACNUT

Is the air handler horizontal or upflow? Draining issues? Is condensate being drawn into the blower housing? Seems odd having 2 bad motors and boards. And it's usually either/or motor or board. Rarely both.

Find the problem before finding the solution.

GW

When you say "a 10 year warranty on all parts, labor and refrigerant"

That's very plain and basic. The fact that you're asking makes me wonder if there's something we are all missing.

My office lady is great, she knows I get weird when we don't plainly explain the charges. Often times we have no idea of the total costs (beyond the quoted 'destination and diagnostic fee), and that's a normal call (unless we get that rare call where the customer can tell us what is going on). If it's a second or third call, we need to be on point. I ask her, "What do you think they are thinking this trip will cost them?" If she can't answer, she calls them back. Gotta be tight

HVACNUT

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1808166#Comment_1808166

Sounds like you should promote your office lady to Office Manager.

Larry (from OSHA)

Chrisj - I don't think a new motor and control board would crap out in a week but who knows. This is a communicating system and the control needs to see the motor. I do think a questionable connection either at the motor or board is possible. The tech piggy backed 2 wires for the low voltage connections between the motor and board in an attempt to make a more solid connection. Seems like a shot in the dark sort of attempt. We'll see if I get any more error messages. This thing emails me when it's not happy. So far, so good.

Matt - I was getting quotes from a Trane dealer and this Bryant dealer. Trane offered 10 years parts, labor and refrigerant coverage which was better than the 10 year compressor, 1 or 5 years (I don't remember) on other parts and refrigerant not mentioned. I asked for the same warranties on the Bryant unit and after checking with the owner of the company, they said yes. Added it as a line item on the accepted bid/invoice.

HVACNUT - Horizontal. No draining issues noted. The tech spoke with a factory guy and apparently throwing parts at the issue is how some things are done these days. Basically they didn't really know what was going on and since Bryant was paying, they didn't care. Not my idea of a good way to do things but if it fixed it, who am I to say anything.

Gary - See my reply to Matt.

Larry (from OSHA)

Update - hope it's not premature. After my last post, life was good until August 28th when it faulted out again. So I don't really enjoy going up in the attic, but I did. At least the air handler is right there next to the hatch so the blower cover can be opened easily.

I checked motor and control voltage and both were good. The Molex connectors attached to the motor just like you would expect but I pushed on each individual wire and was able to move one or more in just a little. This apparently improved the connection on the control voltage side and now all is well. At this point there have not been any faults or warnings. I think the whole problem was a shaky connection at the motor.

So the installing contractor replaced with the factory's blessing, one motor and control board worth plenty of $. I've always been of the opinion that if you are troubleshooting, you should look at all the pieces and not make assumptions.

Along this same line, the technician was positive that the voltage at the motor was over 400VAC because his meter said so and I needed to get an electrician to look at my electrical system. I gave him my volt meter and his response was that he needed to get a new Fluke meter. Just a suggestion but always test your test equipment as required by the OSHA regulations.

That's the latest for now and if I end up having to eat my words, I'll be sure to let you all know. Again, thanks for everyone's input.

mattmia2

Depending on where you measure you can see more than 120v at the motor because of the way the impedance transforms the voltage and current. It should be the line voltage at the line voltage connections but all bets are off through a capacitor, motor winding, or inductor.

ChrisJ

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1810266#Comment_1810266

The few times I had to do it, the biggest issue I had with opening my air handler in the summer was the fact the attic was so hot and the inside of the unit was so cold everything including the PCB got soaking wet from condensation almost immediately.

I'm really sorry to hear you're still having problems.

EBEBRATT-Ed

How could the tech claim there was 400 volts at the motor? Never seen a home with over 240 volts. Test equipment that goes bad is worse than no test equipment at all. I always carried at least 2 meters with me.

I would usually carry an inexpensive meter or a wiggy around with me and kept my Fluke in the truck to not expose it to drops, dings and potential damage. Then if I was in a situation where I didn't trust the readings I was getting or needed more accuracy I would go get the fluke.

Bad or low batteries can fool you. And digital meters are great but not the answer to every situation. They can pick up "ghost" voltage when there is nothing there.

Sometimes you need a wiggy that puts a load on the circuit.

I once had a fluorescent fixture that the electrical contractor never grounded. It would show 120v from the metal on the fixture to a real ground, picking up something from the ballast I guess but it was just ghost voltage there was nothing there when checking with a digital meter it showed 120v. The wiggy showed nothing.

We made one of the guys in the shop come over and touch it LOL

mattmia2

DMMs also only sample at most a couple times a second so they miss things that are changing quickly or transient. An analog meter is better for that sort of thing(or a scope but that is too cumbersome for most things and isn't good for a single pulse).

ChrisJ

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1810274#Comment_1810274

He accidently had his 260 set to 250V instead of 500V and read the wrong scale.

I don't know, that's the best I can come up with.

ratio

I've had digital meters loose their mind & give improbable readings. (Never a Fluke, though!) That said, there's no way I'd tell a residential customer that there was 400 VAC anywhere in their house. Since the place'd already be on fire, they wouldn't need me to tell them.

Steamhead

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1810274#Comment_1810274

Did that fixture have a "rapid-start" ballast? If so, in that type of fixture the reflector acts as a grounding plane to help start the tubes, so you may see some voltage but at a very tiny current. This is why they have to be grounded.

Larry (from OSHA)

Hey Chris, to be clear, I'm not having problems. Thanks for your concern. As long as the system works as it should, I'm fine. I guess as a homeowner, I shouldn't have to deal with it so "hands on" but since I can, I do what needs to be done. And if I had to work in the attic this time of year, that would not be too nice.

Jamie Hall

God catch, @Larry (from OSHA) . Problems with a connector even slightly loose are remarkably common — and cause an amazing array of symptoms, often on modules or components a long distance away. Rule from automotive work — never replace a board or component until you have checked every power, every ground, and every connector!