New Construction Home - Which is better Propane Vs Oil? Long Island NY
Comments
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"Spray foam insulation throughout"
The biggest single thing you can do to improve the comfort of your home is to insulate it and air seal it. I like to say "an ounce of insulation is worth a pound of hydronics." This is especially true with new construction, where it costs almost nothing to add insulation and to seal the building as you go.
Most contractors don't care at all about insulation, because most customers don't know enough to care. If you ask about insulation, you'll often get responses like, "don't worry, with modern codes your house will be super-insulated." That's kind of true, but it's also assuming that code is going to be followed and enforced, which doesn't always happen.
I would be much more concerned about how much insulation than what the insulation is. In particular, spray foam is pretty much the most expensive insulation to install, so installer tend to skimp on it. You're much better off with six inches of blown cellulose than with two inches of spray foam.
I wouldn't make any decisions about particular equipment or fuel until there's an insulation plan and the Manual J comes back. You might be very surprised how little heating a tight, modern house needs.
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- "1. Hoping to place a condensing propane fired boiler and seperate tankless water heater in a utility closet under interior stairs if it will fit."
- What are the dimensions of this "utility closet"? I have no doubt (especially on Long Island) you'd find someone who could cram it in there with a shoe horn. But who's going to service it? Will EVERYTHING be accessible and serviceable and safe? I see this often here. Architects give no room for mechanicals. You get a set of prints and say, "You want me to put what, where?" Then you need to be a contortionist to get to things. IF you can get to them.
- Any chance of an outside, attached mechanical room? It would certainly help in venting and combustion air piping for 2 appliances.
Also, if you're not 100% sold on LPG, Energy Kinetics offers a boiler that is easily converted (by a pro) to either gas or oil fired. You could flip it depending on cost of fuel. And it'll give any condensing boiler a run for it's money.
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Oil at $4.00, kwh at .31?
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Actually oil is $3.50 or so, long term contract. Electricity is 0.31, and set to go up probably to 0.35. I told you it was back of the napkin figuring…
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
Oil has about 140,000 BTU per gallon. Typically it burns at about 85% efficiency so it yields 119,000 BTU per gallon. There are 3400 BTU in a kWh so one gallon of oil yields 35 kWh of heat. At $4 per gallon that's about 11 cents per kWh.
But a heat pump moves heat, whenever the COP is greater than 1.0 it produces more than one kWh of heat per kWh of electricity consumed. At 31 cents per kWh it would have to have a COP greater than 2.72 to be cheaper than $4 oil.
Looking at my favorite heat pump the Mitsubishi M-series, it has a COP of 4.15 at 47F and a COP of 2.28 at 17F. (It's actually more complicated than that, at 47F you should probably use the COP for an output of 13k BTU, which is 4.7, and at 17F you should probably use 32k BTU which is 2.36). Your break-even point would be 22F. Given that the 99% heating temperature is 10F, for most of the winter electric will be cheaper.
Performance for the Mitsubishi M-Series is here:
https://ashp.neep.org/#!/product/34582/7/25000/95/7500/0///0
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If you go to the NEEP.org site I linked to above, and click on "Advanced Data - System Sizing," it will ask you for your zip code and heating load and it will spit out a neat graph showing how many hours a year to expect at each temperature.
For zip code 11942 I get that 22% of the annual heating load is below 22F. For a house with a design load of 42,000 BTU/hr they say the annual heating load is 79 million BTU, which is equivalent to 663 gallons of oil or $2655 at $4/gallon, I don't know how that stack up against what you're seeing.
If you only ran oil when it was 22F or below your annual oil bill would be $584. Let's say in that range the oil is 35% cheaper on average — an average COP of 2.0 when break-even is 2.7. Running oil in those times saves a little over $200 per year. That doesn't seem like a lot compared to the cost of purchasing and maintaining a boiler.
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-No cellar, no garage? Will it be a crawl space or slab? If it is a slab, radiant is a no brainer. The cost of the tube and insulation. A new construction for me would be hydronic panel rads with some radiant floors in the bathrooms, maybe the kitchen if it is tile. Quick, easy to control panel rads everywhere else. A stand alone AC ducted system.
-If the house has no basement, I would definitely plan on using radiant heat at least in the first floor. If you use propane for heat, cooking, and drying clothes the heating cost usually works out close to what it will would be with oil. A high efficiency propane setup would also require a smaller mechanical room than a traditional oil boiler.
-I'd start with a room-by-room heating and cooling load calculation, done by a paid consultant, not as a freebie by the installer. You want this to be accurate because all of your decisions will flow from that.
First, sketch out what a cooling system will look like, in very rough terms — CFM per floor, tonnage. That's your baseline. From there, comfort is money, how comfortable do you want to be?
Thank you very much for all the feedback and hands on working knowledge guys. At this point from what you have shared I'm thinking to:
- Have a paid professional run a Manual J Calculation done off a set of blueprints - The home is going to be a basic 2.5 Story 3Bdr 3bth 2200 Square foot Colonial on a crawl space foundation with no garage in Suffolk County Long Island NY.
- Leaning towards a Propane Fired Condensing Boiler. Due to some space restrictions on first floor I'm hoping place it along with a tankless water heater in a utility closet under the interior stairs. Would like two zones of cast iron baseboard. An in-ground 500 Gallon propane tank which I will purchase not lease. Will also attempt to use this Propane to supply: Clothes dryer, tankless water heater, BBQ and possibly a fireplace.
- Jamie had suggested an Air to water heat pump which was a great idea. I think we will do that to help off set the high cost of propane and because we also planned on installing ducted AC. Did some research on those units today and it seems these newer modern high seer ratings and multiple speed systems can create a big cost difference. Hoping the Manual J calculation will allow for some savings if tonage and btu requirements come in lower than expected.
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I always get a chuckle out of zip code related data. It's so handy. Right there on the internet. Trouble is, in hilly — never mind mountainous — terrain — it is so wrong.
Funny story. The Highway Department in these parts is located in the adjacent zip code, which has pretty much the same statistics as ours. In the winter time, this is a problem, as the highway department office and yard, and the zip code weather data, is often showing rain and mid 30s. Much of the state highway system in our zip code is at a much higher elevation, and it will be snowing like mad and in the mid 20s. Just try to get the dispatcher to send out the plows…
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
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sounds like a plan! The recommendation i have is to design more space for the utilities. In a custom home with a luxury heating system, you shouldn’t be using a tankless water heater for DHW. It’s a low end product in a high end home.
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oil before LP
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If space saving is a bigger concern, The combis are a good option. A 120 would give you 2 gpm or so of continous DHW. Enough to run any typical code compliant shower or faucet.
A 150 get you closer to 3 gpm to run multiple faucets.
A boiler only with a small indirect is another option if you have space for the tank?
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream1 -
At $2.59/gallon and 87% efficiency propane works out to be exactly the same as oil at $3.99 and 85% efficiency. Both $0.11 per delivered kWh.
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Your higher Kwh rates make the numbers hard to justify. Can you cut any off peak deal with the electric provider?
Also should the solar PV should be factored in, since you do generate some power of your own.
This data supposedly was updated July 2024. looks like prices dropped a bit in your area. Maybe they passed along that offset charge to you :)
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream1 -
Thanks Hot Rod, Hot Water Fan, HVAC Nut & DCContrarian! I agree with you and started messing around with trying to carve out a better utility room (possibly 6' X 10'). If that works out to be enough space I could either run with:
A. new condensing propane wall mount boiler with circulators to the two zones of cast iron baseboard and one to the indirect hot water tank or…
B. Possibly stick with traditional oil equipment: 1. Peerless WBV-03 Boiler (Approx 28" deep w/gun and 22 1/8" wide (before piped in) 35" High, 2. 50Gal Indirect Hot Water Storage Tank (23.5" Diameter 54" High) and 3. Roth 275 Double Wall Oil tank (28" wide, 43" Length, 61" high), 200 Amp Electric Service Panel and Wall Mounted Manifold to isolate the rest of house plumbing.
Don't know if I can fit all of this in a 6' X 10' or 7' x 10 Utility room? If so I may keep things simple and stick with oil. Any thoughts on that idea?
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Personally,
I'm not sold on spray foam anymore. I used to be, but now I'm not sure.
If I was building a new house I'd want 2x6 exterior walls minimum regardless of what local code calls for, that's for sure. And I'd likely go fiberglass honestly.
And my personal preference is cast iron radiators.
But, I also bet a well insulated house that is draft free could be quite comfortable with a properly engineered and installed forced air system as well. That is NOT typical in residential constructions from what I've seen.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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Just build your house entirely underground.
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spray foam is fine but you MUST have a system to bring in outside are as needed!
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I'm always sort of sad when I see "new construction" and no mention of passive solar space heating… which, on Long Island, could effortlessly do the whole job with, at most, an HRV for proper air changes per hour. No furnace. No boiler. No heat pump.
But… no one seems to think that way.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
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Which oil boiler did you use in your research?
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No research, just calculation. I'm assuming 85% efficiency for the oil boiler.
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I don't like how it superglues everything together.
Maybe I want to run wire in a wall some day.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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If the utility room expands enough to fit a boiler and indirect, I’d get a cast iron propane boiler. There’s little sense going with oil if every other appliance uses propane (so you save a tank) and if you’re installing a ducted heat pump, the simpler CI boiler makes more sense as a condensing propane boiler will be both more expensive and won’t be efficient at low outdoor temps and high baseboard temps. At higher outdoor temps, that’s when the condensing would occur but the heat pump will probably so much cheaper at those temps, the condensing boiler’s efficiency is wasted. Likewise, you won’t need a top of the line heat pump, so you get greater performance at lower cost with the combination.
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I have determined Propane is superior only if it 96% AFUE or better. But if steam, it's a toss up. Oil has some flaws; soot. can't around the fact that it lowers capacity and the afue; and the motor & pump thing, while gas has neither. But if hydronics is a factor, fuel may not be as important as to function and life of equipment.
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PS I had a client, a single elderly lady with a huge oil-fired water heater. She said it ran even when she did not use it. The cost to repair or replace far exceeded the cost to install an electric 40 gal including the new 240v circuit. We eliminated an infiltration hog, capped the flue. Her costs for domestic water heating went down. Don't know if a larger family would see the same results. It's all about demand use. There is always room in this industry for smarter engineering and application building.
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Simple solution. See what incentives are available first. A friend in Westchester just had a whole house full of cold climate heat pumps (mini splits no existing ductwork was there) installed for like $13k after utility incentives got applied. So I'd say a ducted cold climate heat pump would be best in a new build in terms of overall performance, cost effiency, and long term viability. Sometimes they can feed a hot water tank too but the stand alone heat pump water heaters work fine from personal experience. On top of that I'd install a higher effiency wood stove or fireplace. Some need a little electric to run but some don't require it. That can be used as desired or in a winter grid down situation
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Congrats on the new build and with choosing radiant hot water heat. There’s a lot of good responses and I have also read what your current plans are so I’m just going to leave what I would do if I was building brand new in your community. I’m from an area that has had NG infrastructure since the 1850s (Detroit MI). So that’s the only life I know lol.
Fuel: I would choose propane. Much more applications for other appliances in the home and clean burning. The idea of burning oil just sounds dirty and sooty to me (again a person only experienced with clean NG).
Heating/DHW: I would choose a standard cast iron propane boiler and a separate tankless water heater. I do not like having the systems combined. Yes, it may be slightly more efficient, but I’m just one for thinking down the road when something goes wrong in the middle of winter. Not only do I not have heat but also no hot water. Nope! I’m keeping the two worlds separate.
Standard cast iron boilers require less maintenance than the high efficiency wall units. They also can last longer with annual maintenance. Tankless water heaters have been around quite some time and with maintenance, they can easily last up to 15-20 years.
Room Application: I would choose in-floor hot water radiant throughout the home with separate zones for each room. I would rescue two big ornate cast iron rads from an architectural salvage yard, sand blast, powdercoat them and use one to heat the dining room and one for the family/living room. Zoned as well.
Cooling: Install ductwork and connect to a ducted heat pump system. Technically, this would double as a backup heating option which is pretty nice on a grand scale of things. Even when you sale the home long in the future.
Final thoughts: I just prefer radiant heat over forced air heat. It’s more comfortable and quiet to me. I’m spoiled as my old 115 year old home is heated with its original hot water gravity system through 11 cast iron rads and one baseboard. The best HVAC to me is one that heats and cools while blending into the background. Building brand new really opens up options that would otherwise be very costly retrofitting into an older home. So while everything is being built from the ground up, radiant hot water heat is the perfect choice in my opinion. Every system has pros and cons, so really, it comes down to striking a balance between comfort and budget.
Good luck with everything!
Lifelong Michigander
-Willie
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Congrats on the new build and with choosing radiant hot water heat. There’s a lot of good responses and I have also read what your current plans are so I’m just going to leave what I would do if I was building brand new in your community. I’m from an area that has had NG infrastructure since the 1850s (Detroit MI). So that’s the only life I know lol.
Fuel: I would choose propane. Much more applications for other appliances in the home and clean burning. The idea of burning oil just sounds dirty and sooty to me (again a person only experienced with clean NG).
Heating/DHW: I would choose a standard cast iron propane boiler and a separate tankless water heater. I do not like having the systems combined. Yes, it may be slightly more efficient, but I’m just one for thinking down the road when something goes wrong in the middle of winter. Not only do I not have heat but also no hot water. Nope! I’m keeping the two worlds separate.Standard cast iron boilers require less maintenance than the high efficiency wall units. They also can last longer with annual maintenance. Tankless water heaters have been around quite some time and with maintenance, they can easily last up to 15-20 years.
Room Application: I would choose in-floor hot water radiant throughout the home with separate zones for each room. I would rescue two big ornate cast iron rads from an architectural salvage yard, sand blast, powdercoat them and use one to heat the dining room and one for the family/living room. Zoned as well.
Cooling: Install ductwork and connect to a ducted heat pump system. Technically, this would double as a backup heating option which is pretty nice on a grand scale of things. Even when you sale the home long in the future.
Final thoughts: I just prefer radiant heat over forced air heat. It’s more comfortable and quiet to me. I’m spoiled as my old 115 year old home is heated with its original hot water gravity system through 11 cast iron rads and one baseboard. The best HVAC to me is one that heats and cools while blending into the background. Building brand new really opens up options that would otherwise be very costly retrofitting into an older home. So while everything is being built from the ground up, radiant hot water heat is the perfect choice in my opinion. Every system has pros and cons, so really, it comes down to striking a balance between comfort and budget.
Good luck with everything!
Lifelong Michigander
-Willie
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Oil and gas (natural and propane) are being phased out in the NW. Many jurisdictions have already adopted new codes which mandate heat pump technology. The larger amp load of these systems will be a problem, and system design will have to take into account for low water temps, and DHW loads. There is a higher cost to installing these systems and it will be interesting to see if the electrical grid can handle the increased loads. New homes will need a larger service than 200A.
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I have an electric resistance water heater and heat pump that comfortably fit on a 100AMP panel and there’s room for optimization if I needed. It’s not that big deal for the average American
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Except that there's 60 amps… throw in an electric dryer or a big electric range and you're in the dark…
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
Try 29 amps :). Easy solution is using a furnace for the max demand days. Another easy solution is going with a 3kw heater with larger tank. The point is, we’re nowhere close to 100A, let alone 200A, let along 200+A. Let’s focus on what matters.
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I'm going to guess he's confusing the fact that a 100A panel is 100A @ 240V not 120.
For 120V circuits a 100A panel delivers 200A.
I don't know for sure, but it seems like a lot of people are under that impression.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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A water heater is 240 volts, but usually only 20 amps. A dryer is 240 volts, but around 40 tp 50 amps. An electric stove is 240 volts, and up to 50 amps. A heat pump is usually 240 volts and up to 30 amps.
It's actually sometimes easier (and clearer) to think in terms of how many watts of power can that panel provide? And how many watts does this appliance or that one require? That reduces the confusion of how many amps at how many volts.
So. A 100 amp panel can provide a maximum of 24 kilowatts, assuming that all loads are evenly distributed. Water heater 5 kW. Dryer, around 10 kW. Stove, around 12 kW. Heat pump about 7 kW.
Total… 34 kW. Ooooops.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
150 amp 240 volt panels are minimum today on the Isl of long. Might as well go 200 Amp
All electric on the Isl of long is a long long way off.
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@Jamie Hall service isn’t calculated based on everything running all at once. Obviously that would overload. Not to worry, there’s a calculation associated. The heat is only 2.4kw too, for 2 tons! It’s pretty great.
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I know that. I also know that Murphy is alive and well and living around here somewhere…
If your working on the cheap, a 100 ampere service might be enough for a tract (subdivision) house.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
Not only that but any remotely modern house is going to have a 200a panel these days especially if it's got electric appliances.
Apparently there's some kind of service they're commonly installing now to feed two 200s in a single home but it's not 400a service it's a 320 I think? Because they don't expect both panels to be fully loaded.
320a @240v will go a long way in a single family house.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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I think it’s been productive. We started at >200A and now have arrived at 100A. Even if we compromise at 200A, that’s a win over >200A.
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pick your poison, pros and cons on both ends
LP prices can be funky, gotta watch your vendor it seems, and deal with 'who owns the tank'
if you buy the tank, and you have a regulator issue, you're in a small jam.
Smaller home—-LP (small boiler, small furnaces, tankless wh)
Bigger home—Oil (boiler, hot water zones, air handlers, indirect wh)
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