submersible well pump wire lifespan

Robomoo

Just looking for a rough general idea. I know there is a lot of variables. What kind of life span have you guys been seeing for submersible wire? I have a Pentek Intellidrive 1hp in my home well for 8yrs. Just recently installed same system in my brother in-laws house. About 12 hrs after startup got 4-5 ground fault alarms in a row. After last reset has not happened again (6 days now) I did notice some corrosion ( just blackened) on the copper (multi strand #12) when I did the new splices. Did not think much of that, have seen much worse in the dairy farm milk houses where i do service. Have never had the same alarm at my home. Both wells are 30yrs old and the wire is the same age. Anybody change the wire preemptively before they fail? Would an megger test be worth the bother (would have to borrow a tester) The insulation is either good or bad? Just like to know your thoughts. Thank you

leonz

Why did they not use solid no. 12 copper 2 wire pump wire???????????? You should have cut the blackened wire back. What type of waterproof splice did you use?

It just as important to ask if you if the well driller used good cable ties, a torque arrestor, centering discs, check valves every 200 feet and attached a high quality pump rope with the correct knot on the pulling ring. I hope your pump wire is not attached to the drop pipe with electrical tape.

Jamie Hall

If I were dropping a new pump in today I would do as I did for the one I replaced about 5 years ago (after some 55 years of steady faithful service): type UF solid copper, one continuous piece from the pump to the above ground switchgear (in my case, in the nearby barn). No splices, except the necessary one at the pump itself. For that one, the pump itself should have the necessary "junction box" — which isn't, and isn't meant to be, waterproof. so — the splices are carefully done mechanically, then soldered (the good old telephone company wrap splice, which is a bear in 10 gauge but can be done), then heat shrink insulation over them, then I used a self-vulcanizing silicone tape over that individually, for mechanical protection, then wrapped all the wires together with more silicone tape.

The junction box had an anchor fitting, so the cable itself takes no strain, and the cable is anchored — with a little slack — to the drop pipe.

The old drop wire was, actually, just fine (so 55 years of life, to answer your question) and I hope the new one lasts as long…

If you have a splice underwater, you have to be absolutely fanatical about the insulation over the splice. If water can reach in to the bare wire, you will get a ground fault. Usually relatively high resistance, so in practical terms probably not a problem (the casing is a really good ground) but a modern GFCI will surely sense it, and will trip sooner or later.

DCContrarian

In January I replaced a pump that had been installed in 1976.

ChrisJ

Just curious,
What is the reason jet pumps for the most part have died off except for old installations?

Weren't they far more DIY friendly as far as replacement etc?

Jamie Hall

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1806366#Comment_1806366

They were — and up to a point, are. Shallow well jet pumps (with the jet at the pump, often in the basement) have to be primed, and sometimes have problems with the foot valve. Competent DIY? Five minutes. Average DIY? Time to call the plumber. Deep jet pumps (jet at the bottom of the well) also have to be primed etc.

Plus — they aren't as efficient.

leonz

True, but alas they can be destroyed with a nearby ground lightning strike where a 2 pipe jet just works and works and works. A pump jack or Aermotor windmill works wonders as well and it can be set up with a submersible pump if there are periods of slack wind.

mattmia2

I'd imagine the submersible pump has a lower up front cost so that is what most builders and contractors will use unless you ask for something else.

There could be significant pressure on the splices depending on how far they are below the water level in the casing, it could be very difficult to make them water tight.

Robert_25

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1806359#Comment_1806359

Stranded pump wire is not unheard of and usually has a double-jacket that is more resistant to damage. Pump rope is great until it rots off and then falls down the well.

What do you have against electrical tape on the pump wire?

Robert_25

I think it depends on the installation. My pump wire had rubbed on the casing and nearly worn the insulation off in 15 years - others have no issues even over 40+ years. Pump movement is the enemy of a long service life from pipe and wire, so making sure everything is secure in the casing is important. Minimizing pump cycles is also important.

I am wondering if you have a faulty splice or of the pump itself has some sort of issue causing the ground fault.

Robert_25

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1806366#Comment_1806366

Noisy, less efficient, less volume, and limited to applications with a pumping level of about 25ft or less. Anyone I know that has switched from a jet pump to a submersible said they wished they did it sooner.

ChrisJ

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1806395#Comment_1806395

I know close to nothing about wells.

However, my grandfather's jet pump was being used on a well that was 180' deep so I suspect your info of 25 foot or less is incorrect in some way.

Unless the info I've been given was incorrect and his well wasn't 180.

That's also a possibility. But I think it was much deeper than 25. I'll try to find out.

mattmia2

Jet pumps where the depth of the well exceeds atmospheric pressure need to have the jet at the bottom of the well and 2 pipes. pumps with the jet at the pump are limited in depth.

ethicalpaul

There's a pump guy on youtube who on a lot of his videos discusses the various things that can cause pump wires to get prematurely worn through or broken. Most are due in one way or another to the wire being improperly attached/tied causing the pump vibration itself to cause the failure. I think this is the guy here:

https://www.youtube.com/%40h2omechanic

mattmia2

There is also wire that is insulated with pex which as long as you protect it from uv should be a lot more abrasion and deterioration resistant than vinyl/nylon insulated wire.

Jamie Hall

If the lift from the dynamic (pumping) water level to the jet is less than 25 feet, a shallow well jet pump (one pipe with a foot valve down the well, the jet at the pump) will work, so long as your flow requirements aren't too great. If the dynamic water level is below that, you will need a deep well jet, in which the jet assembly is at the bottom of the well. In principle, they will work to any depth. In practice, not so much. They also need a foot valve. Submersible turbines can be had which work to pretty much any depth you care to name, and lineshaft turbines can go to a thousand feet or more.

Then you have various piston pumps — the windmills @leonz mentioned were, before electricity, favoured in the midwest where the wind is reliable, for instance. You can also have hand powered piston pumps. Again, there are two divisions: the pump piston assembly can be at the surface, if the lift is less than 25 feet or so, or the piston assembly can be down the well, with a pump rod connecting it to the top. Piston well pumps are very limited in capacity, even with big windmills (the ones in the midwest almost always pumped into a cistern or tank, so even a low capacity, going all day and night, was adequate).

Whether a piston pump can be set in the same well as a submersible or a jet pump depends on the size of the casing. There is a limit to how many pipes, never mind a pump cylinder, you can cram into a casing, after all. However, you can pipe, with a little ingenuity, a surface hand piston pump in parallel with a shallow well jet pump and it will work well, provided the leathers or other seals in the piston pump are in excellent condition.

Robert_25

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1806396#Comment_1806396

I was thinking of shallow well jet pumps, which use only a single pipe. There are examples of wells that may be deep but have a static water level high enough for a single pipe jet pump, but it isn’t very common.

Jamie Hall

It's all about the dynamic drawdown — the water level when the well is being pumped. For many domestic wells — say five to ten gallons per minute — the difference may not be that much, particularly ones completed in sands and gravels. For wells complete in fractured rock, or with high yields, the dynamic drawdown can be several tens of feet — or even in some cases a hundred feet or so. In high yield gravel wells, it can also be on that order. I remember one in sands and gravels near a riverbank (no I won't say where, but in Connecticut) which was a municipal well at 200 gpm. Static water at about 10 feet. Steady state drawdown at pumping yield was as I recall almost 150 feet (that was a lineshaft turbine set just above bedrock at 250 feet).

ChrisJ

Ok so in regards to the OP's question.

Why was solid wire recommended for this application?

Jamie Hall

No idea. Except that 10 gauge stranded wire is more expensive in such lengths and insulation quality? And you don't really need stranded. Once the pump is lowered and in place, it's not going to move much (you hope) and the wire shouldn't move at all… so why bother?

mattmia2

Any movement will be spread over a couple hundred feet so the solid should be able to handle it. The stranded is more likely to fill with water if there is a leak in the insulation.

leonz

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1806393#Comment_1806393

Have you ever read what the chemicals used to make electrical tape are?; it is a veritable witches brew of chemicals that end up in your drinking water.

They have been using polypropylene rope to pull pumps out for decades.

The plastic drop pipe centering discs placed over the drop pipe have wire holders in them as well.

As long as you have enough drive water in the larger diameter drive pipe you can pump from a very deep well to push plenty of water. A well with a jet pump will be affected by a well that is run dry or the user does not have water storage by using a timer to run the jet pump to fill the storage tank to prevent the well from running dry by depending on the storage tank for the supply using a smaller centrifugal pump with a small bladder tank.

Jamie Hall

Bad news, @leonz . What are you proposing to use for the drive pipe and lift pipe in your deep well? Or in the drive pump? Or in the bladder tank you mention?

The other bit of bad news is the definition of "plenty of water". For some applications, yes. Jet pumps (either deep or shallow) do have adequate capacity, and may, even for larger uses, provided you have storage. The storage can be elevated or under pressure, so that you don't need a second stage pump for your use, though elevating or pressurizing enough storage high enough for a four family residence —never mind a farm — can get expensive (and again, what are you going to use for the tank? How do you keep it sanitary?).

In the modern world, your favourite piston force pump simply must have storage: if it's by hand, going out to pump up the cistern so your kids can take a bath is none too appealing, and if it's a windmill…

Got to admit of curiousity here. What do you use as a material for the pipes in your house? For cooking? For drinking?

leonz

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1806438#Comment_1806438

Hello Jamie,

If I remember my oil well history correctly the steam powered donkey/pump jack came first then the electric 2 pipe jet pump was used in oil wells that had light crude and the deep well submersible was the next generation of oil well pump and finally the electric rocking horse donkey became the normal method with a drop pipe sucker rod and foot valve.

They have been using black polyethylene pipe for the drive and driven pipes for years.

They used steel pipe before that in my inlaws and my parents wells at the old house.

At my fathers new place they set up his plumbing with a 550 gallon tank and a shallow well jet pump so they could store water as my brother bought water for him and the farm house next door as my brother refused to install an aluminum sulfate injection system to knock down the colloidal clay in the drilled well water as he did not want to mess with a clay waste water dumping system since my father could not do it and they used ultraviolet light to sterilize the water used for bathing and cooking. He ended up installing a second 550 gallon tank and an Alum injection pump system after my father went to a nursing home so he could sell the place.

Typically a black poly tank ment for potable water is used to store potable water at an elevation outdoors typically on scaffold or a flat roof or a haymow.

I have black poly and copper pipe at my place and a bladder tank.

I had an alum injection system and an 80 gallon tank for mixing for my place until the water finally cleared after 7 years of use.

The Amish and Mennonites use a compressed air system to drive well water into their storage tanks in their haymows for their cow barns and homes.

I wanted to install a 4 post aermotor 6 foot mill with a water tank in the shed in the worst way because of the yearly lightning strikes killing my pumps but I could not afford to do that.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Always better to push water than to pull it that is why submersibles are used

mattmia2

The pvc film and adhesive in pvc electrical tape aren't soluble in water in any appreciable way. I would be more concerned about what works past the seals in the pump.

Jamie Hall

Many moons ago, when running water first came to Cedric's home (about 1910) the source was a spring about a quarter mile down the hill. There was a one lung gas engine driving a piston pump down there, which fed a cast iron water main which came up the hill and into an elevated (about 60 feet) as I recall big wooden water tower. From thence into the house — all galvanized in the house (I've gotten rid of most of it…). The tank had a gauge on it, and when the water got low someone went down to the spring, fired up the pump, and returned to their chores. Then when the tank overflowed, they went back down and turned off the pump. Simple. Then later things got fancy, and electricity came to the place, and the pump acquired an electric motor. Just flip the switch! The water tower was replaced after the War (second one, that is) with a below ground, 2,000 gallon hydropneumatic tank. The water main burst in 1960, and the present well (static water at 8 feet, 250 feet deep. pump at 180, drawdown at 12 gpm 72 hour test 150 feet) with a submersible was installed. 2 200 gallon Well-X-Trols were put in at that time and the hydro tank taken out of service (hooray! No more rusty water!).

Before running water there were no fewer than 6 shallow wells with hand pumps on them for the farm and the houses.

ChrisJ

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1806444#Comment_1806444

Jet pumps, at least the two pipe ones do push water.

leonz

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1806444#Comment_1806444

The water drive pipe is larger than the delivery pipe by 25% and that helps push the smaller volume up to the surface and also refills the volute chamber at the same time.

The biggest mistake that is made is a water sleeve is not installed around a submersible to keep it cooler.

Jamie Hall

A submersible pump must be set below the maximum dynamic drawdown of the well. If this is done, it will not overheat — nor will the seals, which are water lubricated, be damaged.

There is no need for any special sleeve — the pump will self cool quite happily in any casing it can be set in. They can also be (and often are) used in large cisterns.

It is interesting to note that the motor on a submersible is at the bottom of the stack, not the top. This also helps cooling, as much of the intake flow (at least half of it) is drawn past the motor on its way to the first stage intake screens.

A submersible does not like to run dry… if there is any doubt about this, then a level switch should be installed in the well to shut off the pump when the drawdown reaches a critical level, or a flow switch can be used to detect lack of flow. This switch is often preferred, as it will also shut off the pump if its discharge is blocked, preventing damage or failure from high pressures (the actual shutoff head of bigger submersibles can be startlingly high — many hundred feet is not all that uncommon; the little one in Cedric's home is 12 gpm at 100 psi, and shuts off just below 300 psi — 700 feet —, for instance).

There is one application, however, where submersibles — and their cousins, line shaft turbines — are at a real disadvantage: wells which were poorly or incorrectly built which pump significant quantities of sand. While this condition will wear a jet pump rather quickly, particularly the jet, it is not that hard to replace. In a turbine or submersible, when the pump shuts off it is possible for enough sand to settle in one or more of the stages to "sand lock" the pump sufficiently so that it cannot restart. While this doesn't actually damage the pump (assuming the motor overload devices are correct), it does create the hassle of pulling the pump, disassembling it, and cleaning it. Such a thing will not happen, however, with a competent well driller (and if the well is completed in unconsolidated materials, such as sands and gravels, proper design, installation, and development of the screen and sand or gravel pack).

Intplm.

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/197467/submersible-well-pump-wire-lifespan

@Robomoo Over the years I have seen pump wire last twice, and three times longer than the submersible pump. The pump wire is pretty tough. All though you can have a bad spool of wire new and off of the reel.

The key is to make sure that the wire does not slide against anything while it's being installed down the well. Those metal well casings are not considered wire-friendly. Proper wire guides installed on the pipe spaced accordingly closer to the pump and less so as you get more shallow. A lot of electrical tape at the wire guides and tape, taped to the pipe at five or six-foot intervals. And keep the wire in a straight line, not letting it barber poll on the pipe.

Proper wire support is very important. Every time the pump turns on it twists in the well. When it shuts off it twists again. (A torque arrestor installed at the pump at the wire splice is important. Some guys install a bumper around the motor too.) The wire can become slightly frayed over time when it twists and causing the alarm that you are speaking of.

And then there is that electric motor that could be shorting too. Taking continuity of the wire and measuring amperage with an Amprobe will give you information too.

JUGHNE

Jamie, perhaps you can help explain or clarify how my Grandfather's water pump worked.

He was an early well driller, blacksmith and steam tractor operator. He moved to this village in about 1915.

Built a house and drilled a well next to it, set up a 40-50' windmill tower.

In the attic of the house above the kitchen/bath there was a small stock tank, (insulated with newspapers of the day). Windmill would pump the water that high to fill the tank which has an outside overflow pipe.

You could walk out and shut the mill off if needed.

I was told the cylinder was down below freezing in the well pit. The sucker rod come up thru the pit cover.

Probably a small hole drilled into the riser pipe so it would drain down to avoid freezing when not pumping.

But how did the sucker rod not pass water down in the pit. As you know when you cover the outlet of the handle type or windmill pump the water will come up out of where the sucker rod enters…………….

………………Sudden brain flash: ……………perhaps the 1 1/4" galv pipe out of the top of the cylinder had the sucker rod extended up to the horizontal pipe that entered the house with a tee and the rod was above that point. Then when off the entire riser would drain down thru the hole drilled in the riser pipe in the pit.

This all came out in the mid 50's when city water was extended up to the house, so being only 6 years old then, I never studied the windmill system. (other than getting caught by Grandma while climbing the tower)

Jamie Hall

There would have been a leather seal on the top head of the pump cylinder through which the sucker rod passed. Also a leather seal on the piston inside the cylinder. Most windmills were double acting — that is, they pumped both on the down and up strokes. Some — and many hand pumps — were single acting and pumped only on the up stroke.

And yes, there would have been a small hole in the riser to allow it to drain to prevent freezing.

On later designs, using hydropneumatic tanks (not modern bladder tanks) things were a bit more complicated. There was that same hole, so the riser would drain — but this had two purposes, and one was to allow air into the hydro tank when the pump started. There was an air valve on a float in the hydro tank which maintained the right air and water volumes (it opened if there was too much air).

Your attic (or roof) cistern was very common indeed!

leonz

Not trying to steel Jamies thunder here:

The sucker rod rises all the way up through the stuffing box to the mills connecting rod in the tower.

The well water is in the drop pipe with the sucker rod all the way to the stuffing box where there is a tee to divert the water to the tank or the home.

The first drop pipe under the stuffing box typically has a one quarter inch weep hole drilled in it above the static water level to allow all the water in the exposed pipes to drain back into the well the year round.

When a submersible pump shares the well casing with the drop pipe and cylinder it is placed above the cylinder

with a tee, short nipple, elbow, longer pipe nipple then the submersible. when the submersible is needed the water being pumped stops at the piston and is forced upward.

The Aermotor folks have a nice drawing of a mill pumping water into a large open tank with the well casing rises to the top level of the tank and the and it then enters a tee which is connected to cross pipes that drain into the tank.

On Galveston Iland a rancher there has an aermotor with a well casing rising above the surface and draining with a cross pipe into a covered galvanized water tank to water his livestock. The galvanized storage tank being lower than the wind mill sits on its own tower and has a cover that was made to be part of the gravity drainpipe from the well head and into the tank. I am not sure it survived the last hurricane but those mills are very tough machines and when the wind is strong enough the sail pushes the mill in the direction of the wind if the hand brake cable is not set.

Fun fact, Aermotor is located in San Angelo, Texas, San Angelo is the Okra capital of the world.