Gas line for pool heater
Hi! Looking for some opinions on getting a gas line to a new pool heater. Pool was put in 7 years ago but we didn’t opt to get a gas line ran with the install and now find ourselves not using the pool much because it’s always cold. We are looking to purchase a 150k BTU pool heater for our 15,000gal pool. The gas meter is a AC-250 and about 45ft straight line to were we will be putting the heater. There is concrete in the pathway so will need to run it up through the roof. Would I be able tap off the furnace line, which is a 1” line and about 20ft from the heater location and run a 1” line to the pool heater? Is the current gas meter ok for the added heater along with a furnace, stove and dryer?
thanks for you input!
Comments
-
This seems just like another thread that was active about a week ago.
That depends on your incoming gas pressure and the size of your other appliances.
However I highly doubt tapping off of the current 1" line will be a good idea but that also depends on how far it is from the gas meter and how many turns it has.
It's possible your current meter will work, but it's also possible it won't.
You'll need to know the total btu/h your appliances (Furnace, water heater, stove etc) and you need to know the incoming gas pressure before you can start to figure out anything. It may be best to get someone in there that does gas work if you don't know how to get those.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
0 -
So you ever expect to operate the furnace at the same time as the pool heater?
If not, the 1" line is perfectly adequate for what you wish to do.
0 -
No. You need a Professional Licensed Master Plumber to size and design the heater, piping, meter size. Definite building permit and gas pressure test. Mad Dog
0 -
How do you know they're in New York?
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
0 -
Don't matter, Chris. Only Licensed plumbers should be working on gas piping. End of story.I don't know of any gas supplying utility that DOESNT require that. Do you? Mad Dog
0 -
I pulled a homeowners permit and it passed.
1 -
-
Virginia allows homeowners to perform any building tasks subject to inspection. Have to sign a few forms at time of permit.
When I ran the gas lines in my house, I had to complete a gas piping chart and had a approved in advance. All inspections were done against that chart.
inspectors tend to pay a more attention to homeowner permit but are pretty reasonably to work with in my experience.0 -
Things had gotten way too Lax with natural gas. A few years ago we had some real disasters where unlicensed guys did shoddy gas work the lead to explosions with injuries in NYC. A LMP that was signing off for them (illegal) got charged h Licensed revocked.
Following that, the D.O.T. (Federal) got involved. Now, with the new gas qualifications, even Licensed, master plumbers are not allowed to work in any gas piping before and through the Gas meter without the specific train. Furthermore, the ONLY person s authorized to shut off gas to the building is the gas utility.
In a dire emergency, any one can shut the gas cock off, but cannot turn it back on. The new law and certification is VERY clear that even a L.M.P. cannot shut the main gas cock before the meter or on the meter. The only exception is he installed an additional gas shut off cock downstream of the meter, which will involve a permit & gas pressure test.
So, what this means, if you want to or need to shut the gas off to change a gas cock on a boiler, HWH or any appliance, or do any pipe work, ONLY the gas utility can turn off & on. People wait a long time waiting for them. Mad Dog
0 -
I find it a bit interesting where you mentioned that a LMP signed off for the work done by unlicensed people.
Here is a question for you:
How many unlicensed people are installing plumbing and gas lines every single day in NYC? In just about every single plumbing company that you can find in NYC, there is ONE individual who is the LMP and he is responsible for that installation. I suppose if the LMP was signing off for people who are not employed by him, there can certainly be an issue by definition. But, is it not exactly the same situation where his own employees are doing the work and HE signs off for them? The LMP always has the responsibility. He would be charged and lose his license if the same situation occurred with his own employees!
Electrical work is identical. The individual with the license may never see the final installation but he is certainly responsible for it.
1 -
How would the inspector or gas utility know if someone shut off the gas to make a repair? You fix what you have to fix and fire everything back up. What that will lead to is someone doing it on the fly with a live line.
As an electrician, were not supposed to cut a meter seal or remove a meter without permission. So when the panel is going up in flames or the main breaker is bad were supposed to just let it burn the house down.
I had this happen to me in East Hartford a few years back. Relative called me with lights blinking and no 240 volt appliances working, no heat and snowing out Friday night. Bad meter socket with wires arcing didn't (but could have) easily burned the house down. Electric meter was locked with a POCO lock so couldn't pull the meter. Had to go up a ladder in the snow and cut the live wires off at the service drop and wait for the utility
One leg of the power was arcing in the meter. When the utility got there we disconnected the bad leg which only left them with 120v for the weekend. Moved the boiler circuit to the good leg which gave them heat but no HW or stove.
0 -
100% of my gas piping was done by me with a permit and the utility allowed me to connect to their new meter and it was all inspected and passed.
My comment was more about requiring a master plumber to do the work. I would think any licensed plumber would work in most areas, no?
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
1 -
even I did my gas line for my permitted and inspected boiler, and I can tell you when I reran it, it was a lot cleaner than whoever threw every weird length of pipe and fitting down there previously.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
1 -
All states are different.
I never got into plumbing just heating.
In MA I had a Master Gasfitters license which is through the plumbing board. MA allows plumbers and gasfitters to do gas work. You can be a Master or a Journeyman. The Master's license is to run a business and have employees. You can take out permits and work as a Journeyman with just that license as a 1 man show, can't have employees. So, when I retired I dropped the master's and kept the journeymen.
There are no homeowner permits for plumbing and gas in MA.
Connecticut is different.
You can do plumbing and gas with a plumbers license (P license) and gas only with a heating license (S license which I had) but you have to have the business license to pull permits (they don't call it Masters) Journeyman can't pull permits. Not sure about homeowner permits down there.
MA may be the exception. I think in most states you have to have the Masters or Contractors License to pull permits . I only worked in MA & CT & VT
1 -
LRCCBG. No, it's not the exact same thing.
- A master plumbing contractor's license, insurance, WC, Bonds, et al, protects the client if something goes wrong. You have someone liable to go after. What can you take away from an unlicensed uninsured guy that blows the building up? Nada.
- "Employees Under the direct supervision of the LMP" are allowed to work on gas piping. That doesn't mean that ONLY the LMP can touch gas OR that he has to be present, looking over his guys' shoulder. Good LMP's & his foreman & supers are very experienced and will police their own employees work, gas & otherwise. They train them and see the results of their work on a daily basis.
- An LMP that "Covers" is most often unscrupulous and won't even verify that the guy has any clue what he's doing. It's all about a easy buck. They hurt our industry & Laws that are in place, I Blame them, largely.
- "Signing off and "covering" anyone under your license, who is not your employee is illegal. unfortunately, it is overlooked & ignored more & more. In fact, it's a free for all. Our trade is a mess.
People are slashed and pushed in front of trains just about every day in NYC...just because it's the norm, doesn't mean we should throw up our hands are let it be, right? If those of you spent the years, time, dedication, and money, and deal with compliance issues that WE have, you'd see things differently.
I don't know everyone's trade, profession or licenses here, but they are in place for sound reasons. Just because I can take my Hand, grab a scalpel, and make an incision, doesn't mean I'm licensed or qualified to do medical procedures. You guys mind if I operate in YOUR field with no training, licenses or certificates? What's the big deal?
Simple DIY projects are fine. Ill even tell you how to do things, to a point. But, when it crosses over in to LIFE SAFETY issues or possible environmental damage, like Natural gas, Propane, Fuel oil, Carbon monoxide, going in to an electrical panel, why don't we leave that to professionals who do this everyday. Each man/woman to their trade... Mad Dog
0 -
Not against DIY. It is the # of slobs in the trade some with licenses that have ruined it for the legit contractor and the homeowner by doing sloppy work.
But as you said there is a point where you sometimes have to draw a red line not to cross as far as helping or giving advice. Some homeowners are more than qualified some not at all. A lot of homeowners just look at the price and think all contractors are gouging them. True in some cases but not all.
To those homeowners I say start your own business and try it yourself You will change your tune about 1 month after starting.
That being said there are many homeowners on this site that have done their own installs and service who have done their homework and can do a job as good and maybe better than a lot of contractors.
I have seen all side of this issue. Just because someone has a license doesn't mean they know much. It's sad. I worked in the Union the last 15 years I worked and there were "service techs" licensed that did things they should go to jail for. Time finally caught up with them and no contractors would hire them and they got bounced from the union.
And this is in MA & Ct which are both pretty strict with licensing. I can't imagine what goes on in upstate NY and VT and other states where things are pretty lax. I worked in both those areas a little and it wasn't pretty.
5 -
Agreed Ed...You don't have to go much past Westchester County to see Hillbilly Plumbin & Heatin...Eastern Long Island too! The biggest issue I see is they don't really like what they do..forget about loving it...no enthusiasm...no pride. I can count on one hand the Plumbing & Heating guys, I've known who actually SOUGHT to join the trade. Most of us fall in to it...good $$$, steady.
Guys that come here and lurk here are a rare breed. If I hit Megamillions and never had to hold a real job again, I'd have a Big Horse Rescue Farm with all kinds of pets, Motocross Course & Bikes, Hunt & Fish alot, take care of all my fambly and friends....but still install, design, repair plumbing & heating…it's THAT integral to my being. Mad Dog
0 -
it get's in your blood. To me it was much more than just a job. Probably why I have issues now.😀LOL
2 -
The BTU's were not provided for the 3 other appliances but just with arbitrary numbers, figure a furnace at 80MBH, 22MBH dryer and 48MBH stove. That's a buck 50 plus the same for the pool heater on a 250 American temp. compensated meter is still short 50MBH, not counting pressure drop. You'd probably have to have the utility change over to 2 psi and put MP regulators in. The one at the pool heater will probably need about 6 feet of large diameter pipe as a buffer before it enters the heater cabinet so the regulator can sense properly. Watch your clearance from the regulator vent to any source of ignition.
Years ago, when I was a factory Q/A mgr. investigating a severe delayed ignition with significant injury on Long Is. I found the inlet pressure was about 5 wci entering the house. There was a clear sticker on the meter stating if you touch Long Island NY/ Nat'l Grid's meter you can go to jail so I had to recommend them increasing the pressure instead of me.
You will inherit any faults or mistakes from the past as you become the last man in. New piping should undergo a pressure test and inspection. That means if the first guy failed to provide electrical bonding, it's in your lap.
While I've done piping on the DL, our Happy Doggy makes a point: Going through a LMP with a pressure test and inspection covers you so you cannot be held liable for any Oops!'s. It keeps your fire insurance in force and it provides someone with insurance to subrogate to in the event of a loss. It shields you from passing on an occult or hidden defect when transferring the property.
Different jurisdictions can have radically different regs, codes, ordinances, etc. Add to that you must comply with the mfrs. requirements. The most restrictive applies. If an unlicensed person does gas piping in NY, NJ, MD, etc., they can go to jail with heavy fines. In PA, you'd have to check with which of the 1,347 various jurisdictions you're in. Very, VERY few require a fitter or plumber's license. Most will want you to pull a permit and pass a pressure test. Pressure tests can vary from the minimum pressure/ time in the IFGC or NFGC to local regs that are off the charts.
There are ways to run a gas line under a concrete sidewalk. Lots of reasons not to run gas up through an attic, down then out. Will want to use steel threaded pipe for protection but hard to work with in existing structure. Up and down creates a trap so you'd probably want to incorporate one at least on the riser.
I hope your pool company sized that heater. Heating a pool in the Northeast is pretty expensive because of the massive heat loss, even with blankets. Most pool heaters up here are flame throwers. After a month or two of sucking the grid of gas and your checking account of cash, they turn them off and deal with it. Paint the pool black and live with passive solar.
1 -
This:
- A master plumbing contractor's license, insurance, WC, Bonds, et al, protects the client if something goes wrong. You have someone liable to go after. What can you take away from an unlicensed uninsured guy that blows the building up? Nada.
Of course this is the situation. However we were not discussing this situation. The situation of concern was where an unlicensed individual was working UNDER THE LICENSE of another individual without the benefit of being employed by that individual. Clearly this is not legal. However, the LMP is absolutely responsible for this installation as he has obtained the permit for it.
It is my contention that this situation differs little from the conventional situation where the LMP has employees at seven job sites doing the actual installation work. Whether the LMP actually visits the job sites and confirms that the installation is proper and to code is not known. But he remains responsible as he is the one who owns the permit.
Sure, it's not the exact same thing. But, it is reasonably close and the responsibility is identical.
0 -
Clarified...And then he gets what he deserves. It's sad how often this goes on. Old timers would do it as a "retirement gig." That's understandable, and if the LMP policed the job, met with the inspectors, and kept qaulity, high, no one was going to break his shoes.
The problem is the LMPs that sees it as an easy $$ grab and they feel entitled to it. I won't even say it's greed. We are all struggling terribly with the high C.O.L.A., college tuitions, business Overhead...all through the roof but I still won't do it...I'd rather struggle. Mad Dog
1 -
That's why I quit the company I worked for or 15 years. My licenses were on the line. The first years were ok. I pulled the permits and had guys that worked for us that had licenses and I trusted them. If they had any problems they would call me. I got to most of the jobs to check on things. Some of the smaller jobs I never saw but we had licensed guys there and they passed inspection. They had to make me a VP to put the licenses in the Company name. That is the way MA works. Things were OK
As time went on and the company grew they started (management) not listening to me. Had many "discussions" about it.
I was 60 ish and had been their 15 years. They figured I wouldn't leave…..thought they had me by the…..One day they messed with me for the last time. They had a rule that if you worked in the office and quit, they would walk you out the door. I told myself that's not happening to me.
I stayed late until everyone left just me in my office. Cleaned out my office and my truck. Parked the truck inside the shop with the truck keys, shop keys, gas card, credit card etc. Called my GF to pick me up.
DONE
Sent E-mails to the state licensing boards saying I was no longer with the company, cancelled some permits.
Went on the list at the union hall and got a job right away (well, after dragging them through the mud for a while and collecting unemployment which you can rarely do when you quit)
1 -
Good for you...you preemptively struck "Corporate." The trend with all these , large, corporate acquisitions of mom & pop shops and 2nd & 3rd generation fambly business is rife with similar stories .Mad Dog
0
Categories
- All Categories
- 86.3K THE MAIN WALL
- 3.1K A-C, Heat Pumps & Refrigeration
- 53 Biomass
- 422 Carbon Monoxide Awareness
- 90 Chimneys & Flues
- 2K Domestic Hot Water
- 5.4K Gas Heating
- 99 Geothermal
- 156 Indoor-Air Quality
- 3.4K Oil Heating
- 63 Pipe Deterioration
- 916 Plumbing
- 6K Radiant Heating
- 381 Solar
- 14.9K Strictly Steam
- 3.3K Thermostats and Controls
- 53 Water Quality
- 41 Industry Classes
- 47 Job Opportunities
- 17 Recall Announcements