Trying to solve a health issue via the heating system

SmallHouseBigState

Hi all-

I suffer badly during the New York winter heating season. When the warmed air wafts over to me from the baseboard, my skin gets inflamed and takes hours to calm down. I need a heating setup where the air is the same or only subtly warmer than the room temperature air. I was wondering if a heat pump is installed to replace the oil-hot water system, will I have some control over the temperature output—can I just have it run for longer at a lower vent temperature, or will I just be in the same situation as before.

Alternately, is there a way I might be able to make the temperature of the water in the pipes, and subsequently the air, lower in my current setup? I was hoping an HVAC knowledgeable person might be able to steer me in the right direction toward my goal of a heating system that outputs as close to room temp air as possible (if there is an answer at all). I have a 1200 S.F. ranch with a basement on Long Island. Thank you in advance for the help.

Mad Dog_2

Good morning. You would benefit from a Field Visit to the home to see what your best options are. I'm on the Nassau/iQueens border. Mad Dog

Jamie Hall

As @Mad Dog_2 implies, yes there may be ways to do this — keeping in mind that if you want your heating system to heat your heating system has to provide… heat. But it may be possible to run the baseboards at a lower temperature with the existing boiler and some relatively minor repiping.

Also as he implied, a field visit to examine and evaluate the actual situation would be worth the time.

In the meantime, thoroughly clean those baseboards. You may find that it isn't the warm air wafting, but… um… dust etc.

Steamhead

@SmallHouseBigState , if your boiler is configured so it stays hot all year, that's part of the problem. You really need a pro to look at it- I'm sure there are solutions, but someone would have to actually see the job to be sure.

EdTheHeaterMan

There are several factors that make 70° winter air in a home, a lot different that 70° inside air in the summer.

The biggest difference is the relative humidity. Do you have a hygrometer in your home. That is a gauge that measures the humidity content of the surrounding air. Sometimes they are decorative gauges that you may place on your wall.

This gauge will let you know if your home is too dry for you skin condition. As you may have heard more than once "It's not the heat, it's the humidity". That holds true for how comfortable you indoor air quality is.

The source of the heat has little to do with that condition. As a matter of fact, switching to a heat pump with a cooler air flow may actually make your home more uncomfortable. Blowing 110° to 120° air thru ductwork or a mini-split unit will create drafts that your home does not have with a Hydronic baseboard system.

Here is a great explanation of why the cold winter outdoor air has less humidity in it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdLJdTwamKc

Bill Swanson has a great illustration of relative humidity using a sponge, in the first 5 minutes of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQXp0IAxv70

When that cold air from outside infiltrates into your home it gets warmed up by the surrounding air, and the heating system. When that outside air was cold, it may have has a relative humidity of 70% which may have been comfortable outside. But when that same air with the same absolute humidity finds its way inside, and becomes 20° or 40° warmer, that same air has the ability to hold more humidity. But no one added any humidity to that air, so the Relative Humidity may drop to 10% RH. As that 10% RH air mixes with the rest of the indoor air, the water vapor moves around to become balanced or equal. Your home's average RH might hover around 30% RH in the winter.

This process of exhaust air leaving your home, and infiltrating air entering your home is happening constantly, each hour of the day that the outside temperature is below the indoor temperature.

The source of your heat will have no affect on your RH. Your home construction and infiltration does. Before you spend $$$ on a different heating system or redesigning your existing heating equipment, check out your relative humidity, and perhaps a room humidifier or whole house humidifier is your key to better health.

hot_rod

it does sound more like an indoor air quality issue, humidity and filtration possibly

The fin tube will need to run quite a bit warmer than the ambient temperature to heat the space

If it is a single zone, a constant circulation with modulated supply water would even things out. If the boiler has a tankless coil adding a mixing station may be the option.

You need to do some number crunching first

MikeL_2

I suggest having an indoor air quality evaluation done by a pro.

Testing for combustion, chemical, and biological pollutants can be very revealing..…

Larry Weingarten

Hi, Another thing to consider is the possibility of allergens. If it were determined through testing that you had an allergy to a specific pollutant, it would be easier to find and fix. Here's a little info on allergy testing: https://www.healthline.com/health/allergy-testing

Yours, Larry

SmallHouseBigState

Thank you for all these valuable comments. I agree that the humidity is also an issue in the winter—I have a smart thermostat in each zone that displays the humidity, and it is indeed too low in the winter. I would like to add a whole house humidifier, but I wasn't sure how to do that if I keep the baseboard system. I also made an appointment on Tuesday with a HVAC professional to come in and assess the situation, as the comments had suggested. I might have followup questions after that, but I do appreciate the time everybody took to address my concerns.

STEAM DOCTOR

Have you checked the baseboard? Are you sure there's nothing toxic hanging around over there? And are you sure it's a heat issue? Do you have this issue when you go into buildings heated with hot air?

STEAM DOCTOR

You remove the baseboard and install cast iron baseboard or radiators etc

SmallHouseBigState

This is a consistent issue for me with heating systems in the winter. In any building I'm in, the newly heated air wafting over to me causes major skin inflammation. It's possible that my system also has dust and whatelse in there that needs to be cleaned, but the heat is the main issue. I've been searching for the most subtle heating system, one where my skin can't perceive the newly added heat. There must be an answer to the question of what heating system trickles heat in the slightest manner. For example, if you had a 10x10 room that needed to be heated, where heat is lost at a certain rate, how could heat be added to the room so that the sensitive person in the room is not negatively affected, but a comfortable temperature can be maintained. I would assume the answer would involve the smallest quantities of added heat possible, stretched over the longest time, like a a system running 24/7. Perhaps the answer also involves spreading the heat source over the largest area as well so the newly added heat isn't spreading from a single location in the room. One possibility I was considering is that below-joist hydronic heat under my oak floor running 24/7 could work. This would spread the heat source over the largest area, releasing the heat over the longest time.

Steamdoctor, thank you for your input as well—can you elaborate on how cast iron baseboard adds humidity to the room. Can I just replace my aluminum baseboards with cast iron, or is there some larger change that needs to be made in how the whole system functions?

DanHolohan

Consider radiant heating.

STEAM DOCTOR

Radiant would certainly be ideal. Easier said than done.

Adding cast iron won't help at all with the humidity. But will reduce the air movement. Traditional baseboard operates on on air movement (convection). Cold air gets sucked into the bottom of the baseboard heating element, get heated up, and travelers out as hot air. There is a significant amount of air movement going on. Cast iron radiators on the other hand, operate more on radiation. You have a big hot piece of metal in the room and that radiators heat. Lot less air movement involved. Do you know anyone with cast iron radiators? Steam or hot water. Can you stay there for a few days and see if you notice a difference.

Radiant would certainly be ideal but it is rather costly. Depending on lots of factors, in floor radiant might not be able to provide enough heat on the colder days. You might need to add supplemental heat. Doable but just adds to cost..

DanHolohan

Consider infrared radiant heaters? Ceiling mounted in certain rooms?

HVACNUT

I'm having trouble understanding the symptoms. A 1° rise in temperature, from say, 68° to 69°, from regular fin tube baseboard, causes major skin inflammation? That sounds terrible, and hope you've visited a doctor. And fin tube is natural convection. If you go to a forced air system, unless it's REALLY professionally done, you're REALLY going to feel the air blowing on you.

Is there a sweet spot where your skin is ok for extended periods of time? Is it better in August in Florida with 96% rH, or better in February in Minnesota at -40°, or anywhere in between?

Is it more a change in temperature from the thermostat, or is it more like if you walk in from outside and your skin reacts to the rapid change in temperature?

Do you wear natural fibers, or polyester and spandex? Soap? Body lotion? Deodorant?

BTW, I'm not a doctor, I just play one on HH.

Hot_water_fan

Is it possible to move? Infloor heating seems better for you and retrofitting that is probably harder than moving.

Jamie Hall

OK air enough. It is possible — though I suspect unlikely — that you may be able to fine tune your baseboard system to produce satisfactory results. As you note, it would be best if it ran at the lowest temperature possible to heat the space, full 24/7.

I'm certainly not going to guarantee that this would eliminate the problem — but it would reduce it.

Now. Can this be done? Yes, it can. What is required is an outdoors temperature sensor and a mixing valve for each zone in your house, plus a separate pump for each zone. The mixing valves need to be computer controlled with what is termed a "reset curve" and that curve needs to be adjusted — for each zone — to provide the heat needed for that zone for that outside temperature. Now they also need to have an indoor temperature sensor input to account for variations in wind and sun loads and space use, but again that needs to control the mixing valve by a computer input — not an on/off thermostat — to adjust the circulating water temperature slightly up or down as needed.

So far as a heat source, it can be pretty much anything — a simple boiler would be, well, simplest. It provides hot water to what is called a primary loop, and the various secondary loops, with their separate mixing valves and pumps, pull hot water as needed from that loop to maintain the temperature in the loop and the space.

Not really something for the average plumber to put together, but there are some really good people out there (not too many…) who can, and possibly we could suggest someone near you.

This will not control the humidity — that will have to be separate — nor will it provide air conditioning, and since air conditioning is almost always forced air that is going to be considerably more difficult.

EdTheHeaterMan

Outdoor reset seems like a good item to try. By changing the water temperature in the radiators based on the outdoor temperature, there will not be the cycling associated with 180° average water temperature causing the radiator to accelerate the convection air process on a call for heat. only to be satisfied and stop the boiler operation so the radiator can cool down. then within 20 minutes a new call for heat that will make those radiators 180° again.

Outdoor reset will cause the water temperature to change to a cooler temperature if the outdoor temperature is at say 40°. it will stay at the lower temperature without cycling the circulator pump on and off since the lower temperature water has just enough heat to keep the room at your desired temperature (like 70°). as the outdor temperature drops lower the reset control will allow the water temperature to increase just enough to maintain that 70° in the room.

The circulator pump never stops moving the water so there is no hot and cool down of the radiators. They constantly radiate the right amount of heat for the needs of the home. It sounds complicated but it is actually built into many new heating boilers today. It can easily be added to an existing boiler by someone that knows what they are doing. the near boiler piping may need to be redesigned a little to keep the colder return water from causing damage to the boiler.

To test this idea, you can lower the high limit on your existing boiler to 140° (it is probably set at 170° to 190° or higher now), and see if it helps in the spring and fall. eventually that 140° will not be enough the keep your home warm, then you can bump it up to 145° then 150° and so on. If that helps, then have an ODR control installed on your existing system.

SmallHouseBigState

Thank you for replying. I have been seeing a doctor for 43 years for this issue. To try to answer your question, a one degree change could trigger the issue, since the issue is a mechanical/vascular disorder within my body related to heat removal from the body. So whatever my body considers a trigger IS a trigger, and the body does the rest. However, the issue is not really that one degree but what happens to get the room to be one degree warmer. Let's say I did want to raise the room temp to 69 from 68. When my baseboard system is triggered, hot water that might be 180 degrees circulates through pipes, warming the surrounding air that subsequently moves upward by convection. Is that air 69 degrees coming off the pipes, or is it heated to a much warmer temperature until it mixes with the room temperature air? In a forced hot air system, is the air 69 coming out of the vent? Until that air is evenly mixed with the rest, it is (to me) essentially a poison cloud that I can "see" with my skin because of my high sensitivity. I've experienced rooms with those univents that seem to blow superheated sauna-like air, until it mixes and triggers a thermostat on the other side of the room. I have to flee the room until the air is mixed, but the final one degree increase of the room might be ok for me. It's the same idea, except on a lesser scale in my house. Sometimes I go into the basement when the heat triggers at home, until it's mixed.

This can also happen outside or walking into a room from outside. However, it's different. The cold outside air keeps my blood vessels constricted, so when I walk inside, the warm air unconstricts them first back to baseline, giving a kind of grace period before the vascular/nerve system start going haywire. Same idea going outside from AC air to the natural environment. I certainly can't get into a hot car before it's been cooled down considerably. It's the abrupt changes in temp that do it.

It's a difficult life, but people do have disorders, and it helps me to understand the ones that I don't have. If somebody has a sugar issue, I now understand how that one cookie could be poison to them, whereas to me it just looks like one small cookie.

There is also a humidity/dry skin factor to this—high humidity is best, so Florida would be good for that, but not so good because of hot cars, rooms with poor AC, etc. Minnesota would be the worst because of the longer heating system, dryer skin, etc.

Since I'm not an HVAC expert, I probably could have done a better job of explaining my needs, but I've done the best I could. I need the most subtle, slow, uniformly dispersed heating system possible so my body can't perceive a change in temp. I initially thought a heat pump could help because it doesn't require combustion and maybe I would have control over the air output temperature from the vent.

Remember that myth about the frog that will jump out of a boiling pot of water immediately, but if you slowly raise the temperature in the pot, the frog will burn to death because it can't perceive the change in temperature? I need a slow increase as well, or I will jump out of the room… (and yes, it's very awkward socially to have to leave rooms until the heat cloud mixes with the rest of the air).

JMWHVAC

If you have a one story house with a basement, then floor heat is very doable. Extra care will need to be given to how it is controled but floor heat sounds like the thing for you. Nothing fast about it, no puffing heat, no sudden swings.

EdTheHeaterMan

Looks like the HeatingHelp.com spam filter released your earlier post.

"I need a slow increase as well, or I will jump out of the room… "

Outdoor reset may help and is much less expensive than radiant floor heat. But Radiant floor heat sounds like the best option, if you can afford it.

Is there any help available from the medical insurance industry, or perhaps a group that targets your specific condition that can help defer the cost of indoor climate system upgrades? I have a condition called Charcot Marie Tooth. Medicare and Humana paid the lions share of my $35,000 wheelchair. Although I got no help for a $40,000 accessible handicap bathroom upgrade. I'm making payments on that one.

SmallHouseBigState

Thank you very much for the additional responses. This has helped me focus on potential solutions, which include outdoor reset and radiant under floor heat, as well as a humidifier. I will now continue my research on those items and update when I have made a decision. At least I have several months before it starts getting cold again. I'm glad I joined this board—you are very helpful, and thank you again for taking the time to respond.

bburd

Ummm…Humidifier, NOT DEhumidifier. You want to add moisture to your indoor air during the heating season.

EdTheHeaterMan

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1802767#Comment_1802767

You do not need a DEhumidifier that removes moisture for winter.. You need a Humidifier to add moisture in the winter. This is one that is made for the whole house, for homes with Steam or Hot Water boilers like yours.

https://shop.aprilaire.com/products/aprilaire-300-self-contained-evaporative-humidifier

SmallHouseBigState

Oops, meant "Humidifier." I already have a whole house dehumidifier in the basement because the other nine months it's too humid here.