250k pool heater on a 250k meter
Hello all,
I know this is a dumb question, but I want to ask anyways just because.
This is a residential application. I have a 250k btu incoming natural gas meter on the house. We have a gas hot water heater (40k), furnace (80k), gas stove (??k), gas fireplace (30k), gas clothes dryer (20k). We live near Chicago.
The utility company wants $1000 to upgrade out meter. Don't really want to spend that money, trying to do this "on the cheap" (yes yes, I know).
I've been looking at used pool heaters, and wanted one in the 200k range. That seems to be the major sweet sport for high prices apparently. I seen to be able to find plenty of used 250 or 266k used ones in our price range quite often, however, when a 200k comes up, it's generally more than double the cost. And this is why I'm asking.
*We have a 33' round pool, surface area of about 855 ft^2, about 28k gallons, solar cover, heater location would be about 140' away from the meter (just trying to anticipate all questions).
Thank you.
Comments
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Won't work. Gas meters must be sized assuming all equipment is running at the same time- yes, I know the pool heater won't be used all the time. Get the upgrade.
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting
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Verification complete, thank you!
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Re jet the pool heater for propane.
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Surprisingly, our gas company told me they were no longer following that rule and said they go by what's likely to be running rather than full load.
I still have a hard time believing that, but that's what I was told on the phone when trying to get a bigger meter. I'm still stuck with a 250 running at 6".
@m_spline A 250 meter will handle a lot more than 250, but as you exceed it the pressure drop increases.
Have a look at the ratings for this gas meter. If you can get by with a 2" drop across the meter it'll do 565 scfh which is roughly 565,000 btu/h give or take. That's 2" just across the meter and doesn't include piping losses.
For your situation I'd recommend getting a contractor in there that works with gas as he'll be able to assess the situation much better than we can and see what you're dealing with. There's a chance the meter you have will work but there's also a good chance it won't. You might be able to tolerate 2" drop across the meter, or 1.5 or whatever it takes for your specific setup. But someone who knows what they're doing needs to be there to evaluate that. In my opinion that starts with measuring the incoming pressure.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
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I'd say it's the 140 foot distance between the meter and the pool heater that turns this from "might work" to "probably not". There will be significant pressure drop in the piping.
—
Bburd
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1 1/2" pipe shouldn't have a huge amount of drop at that distance if elbows are kept to a minimum. Even 1 1/4 isn't terrible from what I see in the charts.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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I will be using IPS gas line, if that helps
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For us, gas is cheap, electric is not. And they are increasing our electric rates to cover the cost of "going green." Our winter heating bills are under $250/month. Our summer bills are regularly over $400.
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Are you heating the pool in the winter? If yes, then @ethicalpaul's idea has less merrit. If this is to keep the pool warm in the warmer months, then you will be paying to air condition the home anyway… Why not set the condenser coil (the hot one) in the pool water and get that heat put in the water. Of course you may need more pool heat than the building's cooling units will generate, but you will be spending those electrical dollars on cooling anyway. Are there any refrigerant to water exchangers on Ebay? You already have the compressor(s) and evaporator(s). And that will definately lower the operating cost of the air conditioner.
Maybe all you need to do is have a refrigerant solenoid valve direct the hot gas to the pool water when needed. Then if it gets too hot in the dog days, have the valve direct the hot gas to the existing air cooled condenser coil.
As far as getting the pool warm when you dont need air conditioning, You are back to the boiler system idea.
This is just conceptual, I don't really expect anyone but Paul to actually try this. Do you have a swimming pool Paul?
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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The amount of heat generally required to heat a pool when people want it will not come from air conditioning. When you really need air conditioning you won't need a pool heater.
Don't forget, you're trying to heat an enormous uninsulated pond, essentially. The amount of cooling just from evaporation is pretty big.
Anyone interested in doing a manual J?
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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Have you considered getting a regular gas boiler (for heating homes) then adding a pool heat exchanger yourself.
there are plenty of used boiler deals online. I actually heater a 30' diameter above ground pool with a used water heater tank with a center flue. I put a oil burner and combustion chamber in a metal trash can. then I set the tank on top of the trash can. connected the discharge of the filter pump to the cold inlet of the tank, and piped the hot outlet to the pool. I fired up the burner and Viola! a redneck heated pool. Since I had all the parts already, The trash can, the combustion chamber, the old gas water heater tank, and miscellaneous pipe and fittings laying around the shop, it cost me next to nothin.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Your AC condenser hot side really novel idea, actually! And if my pool was closer to the house, I may look into it further, however, my pool is a distance from the house and I would only expect enough heat transfer to temper the water. But Running lines 140', even underground in insulation and dirt, is going to lose plenty of heat itself.
As for the boiler idea, never thought of that (and I used to work for Weil-McLain). The boiler would need to be outside, I don't know how many of those are readily available. Could an aluminum, condensing boiler work with salt/chlorinated pool water (I converted to salt water last year)? Then you could get rid of the heat exchanger all together!
Also, Summer months to get started, mostly May, June, July, probably rarely in August and early September. We'd be shutting it off by October.
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Actually ,Weil McLain had a document number 636-000-041 that was called: Suggest Installation for the WMPH. (I think that means Weil McLai Pool Heater). It was available in 135,000, 200,000, 260,000, and 400,000 BTU sizes.
and you can use any indoor boiler that you can find online. all you need is this conversion kit. It will make just about any indoor boiler into an outdoor boiler.
available in 5 colors at HomeDepot.com
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Fair. But remember that a heat pump is around 400% efficient compared to gas being less than 100%.
Your heating vs cooling bills are determined by several things including of course degree days which is unrelated to gas vs electric costNJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
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A heat pump for a pool will require a pretty substantial size circuit as well as someone to run a lot of copper, or even more aluminum 140+ feet. You're probably talking a 40A 240v circuit.
While that may not sound like a lot, it's about 39A more than I can spare in my own setup. The OP's situation of course may be different.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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32A operating, 50 amp circuit breaker recommended, can handle 45,000 gallons, COP 4 at 50F
https://lesl.a.bigcontent.io/v1/static/pro1500q_40332_brochure
This one can't cool, thoughNJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
And it's only 84,000 btu/h at 50F ambient.
Not sure where "can handle 45,000 gallons" comes from?
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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Over on the right side of that Description line
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
Yeah I understand where you got it.
I don't understand where they got it.
Maybe it's similar to 1 roll equals 12……….
When in reality, a cheaper roll is no longer a full roll.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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Maybe it's similar to 1 roll equals 12……….
When in reality, a cheaper roll is no longer a full roll.
Chris, sounds like you are just still angry
over this nickel candy bar costing over $2.99 today!
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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No, I just don't like misleading advertising like 6hp wet dry vacuums
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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this is like sizing a boiler from a table in the sears catalog
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never cost a nickel in my lifetime
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@mattmia2, you have so much to learn lad.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Try a pool solar array. Its the cheapest and most economical way to heat your pool. its just plastic mats sitting in the sun with the pool water running thru it. my neighbor did one for his in-ground pool and he loved it. Put the mats on his three season porch roof. Got his pool to a nice uncomfortable 95 degrees lol. I had a condensing boiler with a tfi/everhot heat exchanger and shut that **** down 24 hours later. i just couldn't stomach watching my gas meter spin and spin and spin. i'm in Boston so the potential to lose the heat from the pool water at night is greater than the southern hemisphere. Didn't seem worth it.
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400% efficient on the day you don't need to heat the pool. Keep in mind that unless your utility has tons of renewables, the power plant making the electricity and transmission losses make it ~35% efficient. Generally, unless your COP is >2.5, you are better off burning the fuel at home.
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
Albert Einstein0 -
in some areas the utilities have great prices on off peak electricity. If they are running generators they need to unload that power.
For a pool, run the heat pump through the night to leverage this.
In my area the utility company wipes the slate clean every March on my PV. So if I don't burn up my excess PV hours I lose it.
They have an off peak program here but it is rather cumbersome for residential customers and a multi year contract commitment. Same thing with the free whole house battery systems
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream
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This is not correct. There is 400% efficiency at 50 degrees for this typical model.
The inefficiency at the power plant is irrelevant to the energy cost at your meter. My street main has been leaking natural gas for years, 140 billion cubic meters of natural gas is flared off EVERY YEAR. There is inefficiency in all energy forms. It doesn't matter to this discussion.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
50F air 80F water?
What's it do with 50F air and 60F water?
And my complaint before was 84,000 btu/h is like urinating in the wind with any pool of decent size. It'll take forever to warm up.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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Take it for what it is. I'm just saying that COP 4 doesn't only happen on hot days
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
if you cant afford it get rid of the pool !
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Or maybe just don't heat it?
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
0
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