Running pex through walls to panel rads?
Hi all,
I am a new homeowner trying to configure a new heating system for my home. It is a 1920 build in the Boston area with steam heating. I know many on this site are big fans of steam, but I would like to replace it with a hot water heating system. I have read "We Got Steam Heat", but feel like both cost and efficiency wise it would be better for me to replace the steam boiler with something new (it is a 45 year old boiler).
My ideal scenario would be to install a combi boiler that would feed panel radiators in each room. I don't see it being too difficult to run pex to radiators on the first floor, since the basement is unfinished and very accessible. I am unsure of how difficult it will be to run the pex up the walls to the second floor. The steel pipes for the steam rads are already in place and I figure I could follow their path from the basement up to the second floor. However, do I need to afix the Pex to the studs somehow? I would not want to open any walls up to do this, although I would be ok drilling some holes in the first floor ceiling if I need to. I just want to make sure the pex is secure once connected to the rads. I also figure I will need to use a home run piping system, since I won't easily be able to connect the rads on the second floor.
If this seems like a reasonable idea, I will follow up this post with some more questions about this project. Appreciate any insight!
Comments
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It's not as easy as it sounds. You need more supports for pex and make sure to leave room for expansion or you'll have a noisy system. Mad Dog
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It's going to cost you a LOT more than getting a new steam boiler and having it properly installed — probably three times as much by the time you are done.
For which princely sum you will get no increase in either comfort or control, and no decrease in energy cost.
Why, then, would you do it?
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
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Unfortunately I don't have any inexpensive options. If keeping steam was significantly cheaper I will probably do it. But my steam system is in disrepair and I have a chimney that needs a liner and repair if I keep steam. I know we are not supposed to talk costs here, but my tally of repairing my steam system is quite high.
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the biggest issues with Steam is at the boiler and near boiler piping.
everything else is minor!
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I don't see any advantage you are gaining with your plan. The energy efficiency difference is nowhere near what you think it is. Those AFUE numbers for combi boilers don't reflect real world efficiency while heating high temperature radiators or baseboards. You will never see any return on your investment in your lifetime, nevermind the relatively short average lifespan of a combi.
A much wiser decision would be to follow the advice above and get a properly sized and installed steam boiler and save yourself a lot of time, money and aggravation. I'm not even a steam guy, I love hydronic heating but I wouldn't attempt what you are proposing in my own home.
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Why would relining the chimney be any less necessary or expensive if you replaced the steam boiler with a hot water boiler?
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Answering my own question, I think: are you proposing getting a condensing boiler that would vent through PVC pipe?
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Yes
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Even factoring in a chimney liner I still think it would be less expensive to stick with steam. Are your radiators single or two pipe? Have you considered what it takes to convert steam radiators to hot water? Quite often valves and pipe fittings that don't noticeably leak under extremely low pressure steam will leak under 12-15 PSI of water pressure.
A chimney liner can be pretty easy to install DIY on a lot of homes...
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Well getting a condensing boiler will save you the cost of relining the chimney. Quite true. Said boiler, however, will be considerably more expensive than a simple steam boiler, and a lot more expensive to maintain, so it's highly unlikely that you will have any savings there.
Assuming that the boiler does, in fact, need replacing, OK. But you say they steam system is "in disrepair". I haven't the slightest doubt about that. Most heating systems — of any kind — are. However, with steam, what is there to repair? A few vents, maybe a few traps? An intelligent technician's time? By the time you're all done, you may have spent as much as a shiny new panel radiator would cost, all by itself, without installation.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
It would be closer to the cost of 10 panel radiators to resurrect a neglected steam system to current standards including labor. This makes the assumption that the NBP is perfect and does not need replacement (and how often does that occur!!)
It would be better to be honest about the maintenance and repair of a steam system by a qualified person (good luck finding one).
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The OP is in the Boston area. Ryan, at @New England SteamWorks , is also in that area — and not only is one of the best steam men around, but also works on other types of systems. He is also dead honest — and if I really wanted to properly review this job, I'd give him a call.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England1 -
I have single pipe steam. I only have 3 rads that can be converted to hot water. The others are column type old steam rads. I would like to get panel rads to replace the cast iron ones.
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I have got a quote from him to install a new steam boiler. He seems great and I would trust him to do the work. However it is still a considerable expense. I am not just going for cost savings, but also efficiency and aesthetics. If doing forced hot water really is 3x higher than repairing my steam system, then I would stick with steam. But I think it will be all in about 10-20% more.
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I like the look of panel rads and they are not too expensive, except for the high end ones. I am concerned about putting money into steam when there are not many people working on these systems today. I know there are some experts in the Boston area, but some people I have talked to really don't know anything about it.
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Thanks. Does PEX need to be supported every few feet along the studs or could it be supported at the top and bottom of the wall?
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Thanks all for the comments about steam. I am getting a quote on my forced hot water with panel rads idea next week. Maybe it is not so cost effective. We'll see.
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Correcting the problems with your steam system will give you a greater return on your investment. A combi condensing boiler is a high maintenance system. Either the high maintenance cost or the cost of lack of maintenance will easily eat up any efficiency savings. I know, as I am also a resident of Massachusetts that the highest rebates through Masssave are for condensing combi boilers and there are no rebates for steam systems. If you must go with a condensing boiler although the rebates are not as high. Consider using a condensing boiler and an indirect hot water heater. These systems do have far less problems.
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If you would, let us knw how it works out. Not the exact numbers, but comments like' about the same", "twice as much", "ye gods"… it would be very helpful.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
I agree with your conclusion. A brand new steam system, piped properly with a drop header and sufficient pipe size will cost more than a HW system. A contractor with a helper can install a HW system in one day if they are good. This will never happen with a steam system.
FWIW, I recently removed five CI rads on a HW system and replaced them with panel rads. The new look is incredible and I personally believe the panel rads gave the building an entirely new look and increased the sales price of it.
You might consider using the existing steam piping that extends from the basement up to the second floor. It's sitting there ready to go for you. You'll get the usual arguments that it won't hold 15 psi. While this is certainly possible, consider where you have threaded connections…………..likely in the basement………….and next to the radiator. Both easily manageable if the worst occurs.
I do, however, agree with the approach to use a condensing boiler and an indirect. Sure, it adds a bit to the cost but you'll save more than the additional amount in maintenance of the combi and you will also enjoy HW at a relatively constant temperature. Furthermore, if you choose the combi, you'll likely need one that is about 3X the size necessary for heating the building. This results in cycling of the boiler throughout the heating season. A well designed and installed mod-con (not a combi) will run steadily, without shutdown, from October to the end of April. This is absolutely ideal for longevity of the boiler. Please seriously consider it.
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Thanks, I appreciate the insight on panel rads. I think they will give my home a more modern look. Which brand did you go with?
I will ask my contractor about using the existing steel pipes. It is a one pipe system so I will still need a return piping solution.
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Thanks. I thought this might be the case. I have the space for a standard condensing boiler, so will probably do that. Any brands that stand out?
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"I agree with your conclusion. A brand new steam system, piped properly with a drop header and sufficient pipe size will cost more than a HW system. A contractor with a helper can install a HW system in one day if they are good. This will never happen with a steam system."
We're not talking about a new steam system, just a new boiler.
And it can be done in a day. I was part of a team of five men a few years back who stripped all the piping from an old steam system — every pipe — and the boiler and had a complete new system and boiler up and running at the end of the day.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
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I went with Myson. Good quality at a manageable price.
There are a lot of choices in mod-cons. I installed an HTP UFT (since discontinued) in the last building. However, I'm inclined to use Lochinvar as they have more capability of programming to match the building and potentially varying supply temperatures.
However, it really should not be your choice of mod-con. The installing contractor MUST be familiar with the boiler. Otherwise you're in a situation similar to taking your Chevy to a Ford dealership for repairs. It usually won't go well and the costs to fix it after the fact will be staggering. Nobody that I am aware of ever recouped the cost of a poor installation by an incompetent contractor.
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Yes, unfortunately with one pipe you do need return lines. It might be possible to open a portion of the wall on the first floor and run copper from the basement to the opening and then from the opening to the second floor. If you can avoid the pex………..do it.
Note that if you are returning from a single radiator, you most definitely can use a 1/2" return line. It will flow more than enough water for one radiator (unless the radiator is 10 feet long!),
Do be careful if you will utilize a mix of 1/2" and 1.25"??? lines. You will want the capability to slow the flow on the larger lines to balance the system after install. Water will take the path of least resistance and it would much rather use the 1.25" lines than any 1/2" lines. This is not a reason to install new 1.25" lines, however you should have some valves (preferably butterfly) to limit flow to the rads that offer excessive output.
I solved this issue on one building by using zone valves. One zone valve for each room upstairs. Since it was a HW system, it already had both supply and return lines. The hardest part was running all the thermostat wires from the second floor! The result was excellent. Individual control of the temperature in each room.
However, this can also be accomplished with the bypass valve that is available for the Myson without the expense of the zone valves.
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I do believe you missed the point about "a contractor and a helper". Let's simply compare man days. In the HW system we have TWO. In your scenario, we have FIVE.
When was the last time you observed changing ONLY the steam boiler that resulted in a successful outcome? It's usually mediocre…………..at best…………and done simply to save on the total cost.
You do the readers a disservice by continually advocating a steam system over every other possible option despite the fact that it is well known that steam can never match the efficiency of a HW system due to its elevated temperatures. The greater the temperature of the fluid, the lower the efficiency. This is well known and we don't need to argue it further.
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When was the last time I observed changing just the steam boiler and the associated near boiler piping to have a good outcome? Most recently, 16 years ago, when Cedric was installed. Before that, when Cedric's predecessor was installed.
However, after considerable thought and contemplation, I believe that you have a valid point: by advocating for the least expensive, in lifetime cost, and most satisfactory, in terms of performance, to various people's situations — whether that be steam, high temperature hot water, low temperature hot water, radiant floors, passive solar, forced air, using oil, gas, electricity, or heat pumps for power — all of which I have done at times — I annoy advocates for this technology or that.
Therefore, I do think that I and people such as myself may have lost the plot for this forum. So I shall join the ranks of those, such as Frank and Gordo and Ezzy and John and Charles and George, who have also left.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
Do you think that your experience with Cedric is typical for most of the potential customers for a steam boiler replacement? I would hazard a guess that you, personally, were involved with the accuracy of the NBP on Cedric's predecessor!
There is no "annoyance". There is, however, a bias. I, too, love steam systems. I replaced one in NYC 10 years ago that is very dear to me. However, the time for steam has passed in the majority of cases. Sure, you can put in a new steam boiler. But, VERY few homeowners can manage it properly and get to a balanced system. VERY few homeowners can track and address leaks that develop in the system. They are generally frustrated with it. Furthermore, today, people like the look of NO RADIATORS or, if absolutely necessary, PANEL RADIATORS. I must say, after doing it in a rental building for HW, the result is incredible and has definitely increased the value of the building significantly.
When the HO wishes to consider a change to HW, there should be an analysis of the cost and the benefits over time. The cost is most definitely not 3X a new steam system. The efficiency of a mod-con is at least 20% better than the new steam system. Yes, the maintenance of the mod-con is generally more than the maintenance of a steam system. However, the steam system is NOT without the need for maintenance every couple of years (and this is generally neglected as you are aware).
It is definitely agreed that changing all the radiators in the building to HW rads and the need to run return lines will absolutely add to the cost of the installation of this HW system. However I sincerely doubt that the installed cost would be more than 1.5X the steam install and this is strictly dependent on the difficulty of installing the return lines. The HO might be OK with this cost because of the capability of controlling the HW system with ease, the efficiency gains to be had with the HW system due to the modulation, condensation, and most definitely the reduced fluid temperatures, and somewhat important to the HO……...the new look of the panel rads.
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Yes these are all important factors for me. Cost is important too, but if the all in cost for hot water is not too much higher than rebuilding my steam system, I will opt for hot water. So far I had one contractor quote me a new hot water system about 75% more than steam, but he didn't even bother coming to the house, so I don't put much weight on it. I will have a contractor come next week for a real quote and will go from there.
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If you allow the contractor to open the walls on the first floor, the cost of running the return lines will be greatly reduced. You will need to take the responsibility to repair and paint the walls…………no plumbing contractor wants to be bothered with that!
Additionally, if you open the walls, you can put 2" styrofoam behind the new lines to prevent freezing. If you just shove pex into he void, you can be sure some of it will touch the outer walls and it most certainly can freeze if the system is off for awhile at night.
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@1920renoheat, I have a circa-1947 Colonial home that used to have forced air. @Dan Foley and his team gave us a hydronic retrofit where they ran PEX throughout the house. So to answer your question, it is possible. We have Burnham Baseray and Runtal radiators. The system is awesome and very comfortable.
President
HeatingHelp.com
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When was the last time? Last week, and the week before that, and the week before that! Hundreds and hundreds of times in fact. I think you are failing to appreciate the utter simplicity and durability of a steam heating system. You say your system is in "disrepair". That's hard to believe because the "system" is comprised of iron piping, cast iron radiators, vents, and valves. That's it. Talk about low maintenance and durable components! As long as someone who shouldn't have, didn't alter any of the original piping, any work that needs doing on the system, beyond the boiler, can't cost as much as a single new panel radiator. And it may well be that none is needed.
There is also no chance any efficiency gains would offset the additional cost of a total conversion. That's not happening. I've priced too many of those jobs to think otherwise.
New England SteamWorks
Service, Installation, & Restoration of Steam Heating Systems
newenglandsteamworks.com
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I would also consider that the typical lifespan of a mod/con is 10 years.
Retired and loving it.0 -
@1920renoheat if you want panel radiators in your home, do it. However don't fall for efficiency marketing BS. I have doubts that new mod-con system vs new steam boiler will save 20 percent on fuel in your house. Don't forget to include the electric usage for the mod-con circulator. For the mod-con to condense, the panel radiators will have to be sized LARGE. Does your home have space for that?
Besides, fuel costs are nothing compared to labor costs. Average life span for a mod-con is 12 years. So the payback on possible decreased fuel costs is NEVER.
Compare apples to apples. Compare TCO (total cost of ownership).
Besides being 45 years old is there anything wrong with your current steam boiler? Is it leaking? Chimney liner is a requirement for new installs. Your current chimney may be OK for the existing boiler or not. Get a professional opinion on the chimney.
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OK, I'll admit I got the 12 year lifespan number from RDRS. 10 it is. You guys know what RDRS stands for?
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