New boiler surging.

Donny5585

Hi everyone. I recently installed a Utica PEG 112 gas residential steam boiler. The old boiler was actually the same model Utica PEG 112 from probably 25-30 years ago. The system is a counter flow piping system with no returns. Originally I swapped the boiler out and piped it the same way it was because it always worked fine the way it was. After the install I planned on running it for the night and coming back the next day to skim it. It banged all night the first night and even started spitting water out of one of the radiator vents so I came back as planned and spent several hours cleaning and skimming the water. It ran quiet for one night and then started banging again the next night. I came back the next day and re-piped the boiler closer to the manufacturer’s recommendation for a counter flow system. After changing piping I started it up with the same water and I watched the water leave the glass while it was running and then it started banging. I skimmed it again and it ran quiet for the night but then started banging again the next night. I should also add that I added steam clean to the boiler on install and added it after every time I skimmed it. I’m thinking when I go back I will skim again I will not put the steam clean in this time. I will post some pics of the old boiler and the new boiler showing the original piping and then after I changed it. I’m really not sure what could be causing it. The mains are all pitched good with no visible sagging.any help is greatly appreciated! Thanks in advanced!

Donny5585

KC_Jones

It's still piped wrong, you should look closer at the picture in the manual.

Since you mentioned counterflow I'll assume that's what it is, there should be drips from the mains that drop down and return to the boiler, those appear to be missing.

That along with the incorrect near boiler piping and probably needing a lot more skimming are your issues.
See screenshot below for proper piping using both tappings.

Jamie Hall

Also,, get rid of the steam clean. Even a little bit too much will make the boiler foam and prime, and then you're done -- especially with a counterflow system.

Donny5585

There are no return pipes coming from the mains and there never was. This is the diagram I was going by from utica manual. I saw the diagram that you posted in the manual also but that is showing a Hartford loop with returns from the radiators, which we do not have.

Donny5585

Jamie I was thinking the same. I feel like the steam clean might be causing the problem rather than helping. 

KC_Jones

Donny5585 said:

There are no return pipes coming from the mains and there never was. This is the diagram I was going by from utica manual. I saw the diagram that you posted in the manual also but that is showing a Hartford loop with returns from the radiators, which we do not have.

Got it.

I guess I'm confused on how the boiler was piped because the pictures in the original post show what you have first, which presented as if that was the old and the second pic is the new.

As far as what they show in the manual, you still didn't follow it. I can see what you did, but the devil is in the details there. You have all the condensate flowing against the steam flow through the same pipe. I also see you have a larger that 2" pipe on your mains and then reduce it in the vertical above the steam feed, further choking things down. That main should drop full size (looks like 2 1/2" or 3") and come into the side of the equalizer pipe like they show. The details matter here.

Personally I think drips will function much better, but in absence of that at least follow the minimum in the manual.

neilc

Utica is drawing some different piping, fer sure,

your counter mains need to "return" at what they call the hartford loop(gifford?), dropping into your header is gonna be noisey, and wrong,

Donny5585 said:

I think you should pipe full size down from that existing mains connection, until you're below the header/hartford connection,
that bushing up high has to be doing funny things with the steam going up, against the returning condensate, bang, bang,

and get the chemicals out of the water

Donny5585

I see I understand where I went wrong with the piping. The odd thing to me is that it was piped the way it was for all these years and always worked fine with no issues. Today I am cleaning it again and not going to add any chemicals and see if that makes a difference. Thanks for all your help 

neilc

I failed to mention, you have no skim port,
You need a skim port,
chemicals won't do it

Donny5585

There is a 2” tee on the left side of the boiler where the supply header comes out. 

mattmia2

It might work if your water is perfect but it is wrong as others have pointed out. It probably worked ok with the original boiler that had a huge xh that could separate steam and water in the boiler.

The order of the header should be:
Risers from the boiler
Takeoff to main
Equalizer.

With it in this order any water that has made it out of the boiler(small amounts, not big slugs thrown up through surging or priming) will stay in the header and move on to the equalizer and to the return. If it is in a different order that water will get pushed in to the main or the second riser from the boiler.

Since it is counterflow the condensate returns toward the boiler in the mains. There should be drips that connect to the mains and to the return individually below the water line to drain that water in to the return. Without the drips the condensate will run in to the header and collide with the steam.

You also have the header from say 2 or 3 boilers ago still above the boiler. It would work much better to remove that and connect each main to the current header individually.

When you reworked the piping you added more oil on the new pipes and fittings you used. It will probably take skimming a couple times to get all of the oil out, especially if it was surging and throwing water and oil up in to the main.

Waher

Something like this maybe so that you only have to mess with one big elbow (replace it with a matching size tee) with slight asbestos residue rather than taking the whole thing apart.

delcrossv

What the factory piping diagram shows is the steam is fed from above the return to the boiler. That way, water and condensate has a straight shot back to the boiler. I'd replace that reducing ell at the end of the V shaped assembly with a tee and feed the steam from the top with a straight shot from the bottom back to the boiler return. Connect the mains to the branch side. Also, you should arrange your feeds from the boiler to be on the same side of the feed to the house mains- not one on either side.
Your arrangement has a circuitous path for entrained water from your boiler as well as condensate.

Donny5585

Thank you everyone for the input. How important is it to maintain the measurements in relation to water line as shown in the manufacturer diagram? 

mattmia2

Very. Go higher if you can. The steam moving up and the weight of the water carrying the water down in the risers is most of how the separation of the water and steam happens.

EdTheHeaterMan

Boilers from 70 years ago had large volume of space above the water line. That way there was plenty of room for the steam to leave the top of the boiling water without dragging water with it out the top openings to the main steam pipes.

Boilers today do not have that BIG steam chest to separate the water from the steam. Add to that the fact that your counter flow system has water returning down the same pipe as the steam is going up to the main(s). Low picture a fan blowing air into a duct (like the steam if blowing into a pipe) then you reduce the diameter of the duct just before you increase the diameter back to the full duct size.

Now in your minds eye think about the amount of air blowing in the smaller duct, and how it will go faster in the smaller duct, and what will happen to any water that might be dripping down that smaller duct. The fan will just blow that water back up into the duct until there is so much water that it ll falls down into the bottom of the small duct, making a crashing noise when the 💩 hits the fan so to speak.



So you need to follow the near boiler piping from the manufacturer to get the steam to leave the boiler without dragging extra water along with it.... We refer to that steam as dry steam. If you have pipes that are too small and the velocity of the steam leaving the boiler drags lots of water with it, then you have WET steam. and that is noisy steam.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@EdTheHeaterManhe replaced the old boiler with an identical boiler.

still need to fix the piping in accordance with the mfg instructions N install counterflow drips if u dont have them and skim of course

EdTheHeaterMan

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@EdTheHeaterManhe replaced the old boiler with an identical boiler.

still need to fix the piping in accordance with the mfg instructions N install counterflow drips if u dont have them and skim of course

Was the Utica Boiler installed 70 years ago?

I still think the way the first Utica was installed is better than the way he repiped the new Utica. It may not be exactly like Figure 21 in the manual, but at least it does not have the main connected between the two risers.

ChrisJ

If the old one was working ok and the replacement is not and nothing else changed I'd say the water quality is the problem.

delcrossv

ChrisJ said:

If the old one was working ok and the replacement is not and nothing else changed I'd say the water quality is the problem.

Near boiler piping was changed. @Waher
has a good fix for water separation. 

ChrisJ

delcrossv said:

ChrisJ said:

If the old one was working ok and the replacement is not and nothing else changed I'd say the water quality is the problem.

Near boiler piping was changed. @Waher
has a good fix for water separation. 

Thank you for that.
I somehow missed half of the discussion....

Waher

you may need to add a swing elbow to the header as it drops into the tee feeding the existing header to provide the correct pitch. The new header needs to drain into the tee just as the old header is pitched to drain into the current elbow where the new tee should go. Feeding the steam from above to allow the condensate to drain below with minimal colliding is key in a counterflow system that doesn't have individual drip return lines on each main. That's why Pg. 28 of the boiler manual shows it that way.

Ideally you'd do what @New England SteamWorks shows on one of their diagrams and get a dripped return line for each direction of the main which allows for a header constructed like a typical parallel flow system instead of the fed from above tee configuration shown in my sketches and the boiler manual. NESW's configuration with drips off each main keeps the returning condensate from the mains from having to re-enter the header at all.

ethicalpaul

Today I learned that Utica has no idea what a Hartford Loop is.

Curious side question: how did you determine what size boiler to install?

SeanBeans

Dude what is that Utica photo? That has to be the worst steam piping recommendation I've ever seen from a manufacturer.