New Boiler... Balancing Challenges (SOLVED)

3DPhamily

Sorry for the long post gents, I'm trying to capture my "Dead Men's Diagnostics" up and to this point on my one pipe steam system...

June 2023 we had our New Yorker Oil Fired Steam Boiler replaced due to a crack in the top of the boiler vessel. It was sending at least 50% of our steam up and out the chimney, why we replaced it. Bummer.

Here in New England we are in the midst of our first heating season with the new boiler and it is kicking my butt in the "balancing" realm and I could use a little help.

The new boiler, a Burnham Mega Steam MST-396 is an impressive boiler and is certainly an efficient beast. However, I now have two radiators that are no longer getting steam (the farthest radiators from the boiler and also on the slower main), water hammer (which we never used to have), and my mains are no longer heating at the same pace (this is most likely due the slightly longer piping in the near boiler pipe kit).

Over the past few months of very cold temps here in CT I have; lowered the pressure to cut in at 1/2 and cut out at 1 pound as suggested in WGSH, verified pitch to all my radiators and runouts and repaired as needed, remeasured and recalculated my venting needs in accordance the vent capacity chart, replaced vents the main vents with B&J Big Mouths, put faster vents on the cold radiators, and replaced any worn and broken radiator vents.

Standing by to provide any information needed and hopefully hear some much needed guidance.

Ironman

Is this a one or two pipe system?

3DPhamily

One pipe

KC_Jones

Was the boiler skimmed after install?
How did they size the replacement boiler?
Can you post pictures of the boiler and it's piping?

3DPhamily

The boiler was skimmed after install. Based on the slight surging I don’t think it was done well. They sized the boiler based on the EDR of our 11 radiators.

ethicalpaul

You said you put faster vents on the cold radiators, but I would ask, "what vents do you have on the hot radiators?"

It's far better to slow the hot ones than try to outrace them

Tell us about the cold ones. Are they all upstairs? Are they all on one of your two mains? Or is it just one or two?

PS: I see your resistive electric water heater. Too bad it's new and won't die for a long time...it is a perfect location for a heat pump water heater. But a standalone one, resistive or not, is the right choice, congrats there.

Also congrats on the near boiler piping, it looks great. What boiler additive is that? You might drain it dry and refill it with water. The additive looks like surge-x, not my favorite.

Did they leave the skimming fittings in place? If not, you can probably restore them pretty easily and skim it more if you think it needs it. If it is surging AT ALL then it probably needs it. The ONLY way that piping could be surging is if the water is oily or otherwise fouled.

KC_Jones

Very nice install! We aren't used to that around here.

A simple first step would be to do more skimming to see if surging or carry over is the issue. With skimming an initial skim is good, but typically after it's been in service for a period of time all the oils from the piping end up in the boiler and a second, perhaps even third skim is necessary. The more new piping, the more skimming may be needed. I can't tell from the pictures if the skim port has even been installed, it's got a plug from the factory. The plug should have been removed, a pipe installed, and then a cap screwed onto that for future use, or even the initial use. I attached the schematic to show the skim tapping on the rear of the boiler. They call it surface blow off, but that is indeed the skim port.

3DPhamily

ethicalpaul said:

You said you put faster vents on the cold radiators, but I would ask, "what vents do you have on the hot radiators?"

It's far better to slow the hot ones than try to outrace them

They are Gorton vents all the way around sized to the EDR and CFM based on the vent capacity chart found on Heating Help, with the exception of the mains which are B&J Big Mouths. I have been slowly but surely slowing the hot radiators (perhaps not enough). That is what I seem to be chasing at the moment, slowing and speeding. I am starting to feel like I am chasing my tail. Is there a methodical way to approach "by the seat of your pants" venting?

ethicalpaul said:

Tell us about the cold ones. Are they all upstairs? Are they all on one of your two mains? Or is it just one or two?

I have two cold radiators both coming off the slow main. One upstairs and one on the first floor. The first floor one is in a small bathroom and has a 1" runout vice the 1.5" throughout the rest of the system.

ethicalpaul said:

PS: I see your resistive electric water heater. Too bad it's new and won't die for a long time...it is a perfect location for a heat pump water heater. But a standalone one, resistive or not, is the right choice, congrats there.

That resistive water heater just recently replaced a heat pump heater that died. It was an emergent install and the only water heater I could get on short notice. I have a wife and three teenage daughters... life without hot water doesn't last long haha.

ethicalpaul said:

What boiler additive is that? You might drain it dry and refill it with water. The additive looks like surge-x, not my favorite.

Did they leave the skimming fittings in place? If not, you can probably restore them pretty easily and skim it more if you think it needs it. If it is surging AT ALL then it probably needs it. The ONLY way that piping could be surging is if the water is oily or otherwise fouled.

It is absolutely Surge-X. The skimming fittings are in place and I have been contemplating re-skimming. I just want to add in a better additive on refill.What additive would you recommend after refill.

3DPhamily

KC_Jones said:

Very nice install! We aren't used to that around here.

A simple first step would be to do more skimming to see if surging or carry over is the issue. With skimming an initial skim is good, but typically after it's been in service for a period of time all the oils from the piping end up in the boiler and a second, perhaps even third skim is necessary. The more new piping, the more skimming may be needed. I can't tell from the pictures if the skim port has even been installed, it's got a plug from the factory. The plug should have been removed, a pipe installed, and then a cap screwed onto that for future use, or even the initial use. I attached the schematic to show the skim tapping on the rear of the boiler. They call it surface blow off, but that is indeed the skim port.

I have read the boiler install manual and skimming is relatively simple... However, do you have any tips and/or tricks to make the job easier and to ensure I am skimming to the proper point?

KC_Jones

The best trick I can think of is patience. My basement is a workshop so when I skimmed mine I made sure I had a project to work on for a few hours while water was trickling out of my boiler. I think @ChrisJ has a video showing the flow rate while skimming, it's very slow and takes many hours. If memory serves I was doing about 2.5 gallons per hour flow rate, that's loosely based on using a 5 gallon bucket as I don't have any floor drains to go to.

Hopefully they installed the skim pipe with a cap already, the full size skim tapping makes it easier.

dabrakeman

You keep mentioning a slow main? Step one of balancing is to try to get the two mains relatively even so consider maybe adding a Gorton 1 or 2 on the slower main, then slow down the faster radiators. I have all adjustable vents so the process was a bit easier.

I have never used any additive. If well skimmed the necessity of additive is debatable. Some believe an additive to raise the pH a bit is beneficial from corrosion perspective but the surging is surely due to oils. Skim!

3DPhamily

KC_Jones said:

Hopefully they installed the skim pipe with a cap already, the full size skim tapping makes it easier.

My skim port as installed. Ball valve and cap. Do you have a link to the @ChrisJ video?

ethicalpaul

I don't skim as slowly as some others. I would say more like a gallon every 5-10 minutes or something like that. There's no need to torture yourself, you just want the water to be undisturbed inside the boiler and able to carry the oils that are floating on top of it out the skim pipe.

I wouldn't bother with additive until the water is very clean and stable for several weeks and free of oil (like if you start a skim and see no "sheen" on the water as it comes out). Then after that, I like to just get the PH up to 10 or 11 to dramatically slow corrosion. I use 8-way. A quart costs $20 and lasts a long time if you only add enough to get the PH to the desired level (ignore the instructions and instead use cheap litmus paper PH test strips from Amazon)

What size Gorton vents do you have on your radiators, the hot ones and the cold ones.

There is a possibility of other problems that would overwhelm the ability of venting alone to fix, such as sagging main pipes or radiator supply pipes which create water traps that can block steam flow. Keep that in mind.

If it were me, I'd have a #4 vent (the slowest) on every warm radiator then put a #5 or #6 on the cold ones and see how that goes. Then change just one radiator at a time to see how things change, because every change to the system will result in changes elsewhere so you don't want to change too much at once.

Personally I think that a "C" or "D" vent should never be required on a radiator unless it's like on the 3rd or 4th floor. A Gorton (and Maid O Mist) "D" size is the same size as their #1 main vent.

Sorry about your heat pump failure. Just for fun, what brand was it?

ChrisJ

Please fix your pressure relief.

It's oriented incorrectly and honestly, I wouldn't want PVC on the outlet of a steam pressure relief.

I don't know why they cannot be installed horizontally, but it's written everywhere.


Here's my skimming video KC mentioned.

https://youtu.be/nPKTSn-depc

3DPhamily

dabrakeman said:

You keep mentioning a slow main? Step one of balancing is to try to get the two mains relatively even so consider maybe adding a Gorton 1 or 2 on the slower main, then slow down the faster radiators. I have all adjustable vents so the process was a bit easier.

I have never used any additive. If well skimmed the necessity of additive is debatable. Some believe an additive to raise the pH a bit is beneficial from corrosion perspective but the surging is surely due to oils. Skim!

I have two B&J Big Mouths on each main. The slower main is wide open and the faster is slowed using a 1/4" nipple. That has gotten me close to balancing the mains (within 2 minutes of each other). I am going to start the skim process this afternoon. I kind of saw this coming with a "short" skim by the installer and a "fix it all" additive added.

3DPhamily

ChrisJ said:

Please fix your pressure relief.

It's oriented incorrectly and honestly, I wouldn't want PVC on the outlet of a steam pressure relief.

I don't know why they cannot be installed horizontally, but it's written everywhere.


Here's my skimming video KC mentioned.

https://youtu.be/nPKTSn-depc

Thank you sir! What would you recommend for pressure relief? Copper? Steel? Which way should I orient? I ask all of these questions because, while I found a decent steam installer in our area... the finer details are lacking. Maybe I have read too many @DanHolohan books.

KC_Jones

That install is so nice, I wouldn't judge that contractor too harshly with the skimming and additive. That work is so easy, especially with the port they installed for you.

Believe me, we've seen some horrid installs on here that people paid in full for, and most likely will never, ever work correctly. So when I see one like yours, it gives me hope.

I'm shocked they didn't put their sticker on that install.

3DPhamily

Would you gents recommend draining, refilling, and skimming prior to messing with vents anymore?

ChrisJ

Yeah,
overall it's a very good install.

ethicalpaul

3DPhamily said:

Would you gents recommend draining, refilling, and skimming prior to messing with vents anymore?

No, I would recommend skimming first (before draining and refilling). You can mess with your vents while you're still figuring out your water.

3DPhamily

ethicalpaul said:

What size Gorton vents do you have on your radiators, the hot ones and the cold ones.

I range from 4 to D depending on the location and CFM venting.

ethicalpaul said:

There is a possibility of other problems that would overwhelm the ability of venting alone to fix, such as sagging main pipes or radiator supply pipes which create water traps that can block steam flow. Keep that in mind.

I noticed a sag in the slow main and adjusted the strapping to bring it back in pitch. None of the runouts are sagging.

ethicalpaul said:

If it were me, I'd have a #4 vent (the slowest) on every warm radiator then put a #5 or #6 on the cold ones and see how that goes. Then change just one radiator at a time to see how things change, because every change to the system will result in changes elsewhere so you don't want to change too much at once.

This is wear my head is at. Just want to make sure anything (such as a proper skimming) before hand was done.

ethicalpaul said:

Personally I think that a "C" or "D" vent should never be required on a radiator unless it's like on the 3rd or 4th floor. A Gorton (and Maid O Mist) "D" size is the same size as their #1 main vent.

So, what I'm hearing is I have been trying to "outrace" with C and D vents rather than slowing the rest. I am a Navy guy and the math and measurements made sense. I am struggling with the seat of the pants method and what the best approach is as to not continue to chase my tail.

ethicalpaul said:

Sorry about your heat pump failure. Just for fun, what brand was it?

It was a GE Geospring. Lasted about 6 years and saved a ton of energy cost.

dabrakeman

Something is not adding up to me. How long are your mains and what pipe size? With two Big Mouths on each it would seem to me it shouldn't take 2 minutes for the mains to fill period (from when steam first enters the header) let alone 2 minutes differential between the two. What else could be slowing the slow main down? You mentioned one sag that you fixed. How much of that main is counterflow vs parallel flow (counterflow just to the strap or all the way to the far basement wall?) and how does it compare to the fast main? Is this time differential with cold pipes, warm or both? If you are sure your pitch is correct throughout both mains then insulating might be your next step. Start with the slow main.

3DPhamily

dabrakeman said:

Something is not adding up to me. How long are your mains and what pipe size?

You and I both. The mains are 2" pipe. The slow main is 36', and the faster main is 26'. Both measured from the header.

dabrakeman said:

You mentioned one sag that you fixed. How much of that main is counterflow vs parallel flow (counterflow just to the strap or all the way to the far basement wall?) and how does it compare to the fast main?

I used a 6 inch torpedo level, every 6 inches to verify pitch over the whole main run. Roughy 1/8 drop every 6 inches. Is this adequate?

dabrakeman said:

With two Big Mouths on each it would seem to me it shouldn't take 2 minutes for the mains to fill period (from when steam first enters the header) let alone 2 minutes differential between the two.

It was roughly 2 minutes for the mains to fill from cold header to shut. Then another 2 minutes for the slower main vent to shut. The differential is with all cold uninsulated pipes.

dabrakeman said:

If you are sure your pitch is correct throughout both mains then insulating might be your next step.

Pitch is the one thing I'm unsure of. Is there a proper standard of pitch over run? The installer said insulating the mains was a waste of money... I know that @DanHolohan recommends that at a minimum.

dabrakeman

1" per 20ft of pipe away from boiler for parallel flow. 1" per 10" toward boiler for counter flow.

ethicalpaul

The differential is with all cold uninsulated pipes.

Don't time it with cold pipes. Time it with warm pipes. With cold pipes (insulated or not), you are measuring the time to heat the pipes. You want to time the air escaping from your main vents. BTW I think you have at least twice as much main venting as you need.

So, what I'm hearing is I have been trying to "outrace" with C and D vents rather than slowing the rest. I am a Navy guy and the math and measurements made sense. I am struggling with the seat of the pants method and what the best approach is as to not continue to chase my tail.

Yes exactly this. You will have a very hard time outracing a C or D vent. Vent the mains fast (yours are plenty fast with 2 BM's on each!) and the radiators slowly. This will give you a chance to balance things with minor changes.

PS: if it were me, I'd remove one BM from each main and keep them for spares. People say it's not possible to over-vent a main but they are wrong. You are basically doubling your odds of a failed open main vent for no benefit currently in my humble opinion

ethicalpaul

dabrakeman said:

1" per 20ft of pipe away from boiler for parallel flow. 1" per 10" toward boiler for counter flow.

I think you mean 1" per 10' (feet) here but anyway the specifics don't matter much...if you can measure a pitch it's basically good enough

dabrakeman

yes sorry for the typo.

ethicalpaul said:

dabrakeman said:

1" per 20ft of pipe away from boiler for parallel flow. 1" per 10" toward boiler for counter flow.

I think you mean 1" per 10' (feet) here but anyway the specifics don't matter much...if you can measure a pitch it's basically good enough

STEAM DOCTOR

I would start by flushing out all of that surgex. Not sure if it was addressed but are we sure this is firing properly? 

3DPhamily

STEAM DOCTOR said:

I would start by flushing out all of that surgex. Not sure if it was addressed but are we sure this is firing properly? 

As far as I know the boiler is firing properly. Relying on the installer’s calibration machine.  Should I flush the Surge-X out and refill before skimming?  Or skim and flush and fill?

ethicalpaul

The reason I suggested skimming as a very first step is that currently, and especially after some resting time, the oils are sitting nice and spread out across the top of all the boiler water.

Draining and refilling will churn them up and mix them throughout the water until they have time to rest again and float to the top.

By starting with skimming (fill it slowly), you will have a free shot at having all those floating oils flow out.

Also the water is likely nice and hot already without having to heat up the boiler again, where if you drain and fill it, it will be cold. I like skimming with hot water.

3DPhamily

STEAM DOCTOR said:

I would start by flushing out all of that surgex.

Just did that. WHAT A DIFFERENCE! Much quieter pipes, and while not ideal, the cold radiators are warming. All this without a full skim. Just flushing the SurgeX out!

3DPhamily

ethicalpaul said:

No, I would recommend skimming first (before draining and refilling). You can mess with your vents while you're still figuring out your water.

I saw this comment a bit too late. I just drained and flushed the SurgeX out. What a difference. It still needs a proper skim.

BTW: I just watched your SurgeX video. Good video.

SteamingatMohawk

Regarding overventing, toward the end of the Balancing Steam Systems report, there is an update about overventing. If you haven't read it, I recommend that you do.

neilc

SteamingatMohawk said:

Regarding overventing, toward the end of the Balancing Steam Systems report, there is an update about overventing. If you haven't read it, I recommend that you do.

Balancing Steam Systems report
Link ?

SteamingatMohawk

Here it is.

https://www.heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/balancing-steam-systems-using-a-vent-capacity-chart/

3DPhamily

Thank you everyone for all the help! Quick update. After a drain, flush and fill to get the SurgeX out. Fired the boiler and it was an immediate difference.

I am going to start a skim this morning. A quick trip to the supply house and I have a bottle of 8-Way to treat with.

What is the most efficient and effective way to get the treatment in the boiler? I was planning on plumbing a route through the skim port...

ethicalpaul

I'll say it again: Even though 8-way is my favorite, don't even think about adding it until your water is nice and clean and your boiler has run for a couple weeks and had several skims with at least one with no sign of any oil.

There's no sense adding anything if you're just going to be skimming it out anyway.

To answer your question, I have my skim port set up such that I can put things into my boiler through it. If I recall what yours looks like, you could make a funnel with a vinyl hose on it, and run that into your boiler.

STEAM DOCTOR

Not sure if I agree @ethicalpaul. On new boiler, I put in scaleflush (tablet version of 8-way), heat up boiler and flush a whole bunch of times. The difference is noticable and instant. I skim after a few weeks of operation. Can't say this is the best method. But seems to work. 

ethicalpaul

I think there are lots of paths to success, agreed. But does a new boiler have scale to flush?

STEAM DOCTOR

Just about every new boiler I've seen, has little rust flakes. Or something like that. Maybe congealed oil or who knows what. 

STEAM DOCTOR

Not 100% sure why it works. Don't even know if I'm 1% sure. But it certainly works and makes a big difference