"I'm not actually and HVAC Tech, but I know how it works..."

Illinoisfarmer

Son #3 is 20 and lives in a student apartment. It's a newer building of 20 or so efficiency apartments, with a sleeping area in a loft above the kitchen/bath area. Neat place, he likes it, all kids about his age group, obviously. The apartments are all heated and cooled by a mini-split heat pump with the interior unit mounted on the wall inside the front door, and the exterior unit just outside.

A week ago we had a cold snap (-14 on Sunday morning). I got a call from him (it was obviously serious, since it wasn't a text). His apartment was 45 degrees according to the thermostat, and the blower was putting out cold air. He'd already called maintenance, and the tech was in the area and would stop by soon. About a half hour later, I got a text with this picture attached...



The Tech had been there, said that the Heat Pumps were shutting down due to the cold, and that they were telling all of the tenants to set their ovens at 275, and leave the door open. I wasn't amused. I trust my son not to be stupid (WAY more than his brothers!), and I know that there not a lot of difference between the heating element in an electric heater and an oven. But telling a building full of college kids to use their stoves to heat their apartments seems like a bad idea. Especially when one of the kids is mine, and the one that I actually like!

I sent the boy in search of the "Tech", he found the guy a couple apartments away giving the same advice. I had Bubba hand him the phone, we had a short but effective conversation:

Me: You think it's a good idea to have all these kids running their ovens to heat the building?

Tech: Well, that's the only thing we can do right now, the way these units are designed, they need extra help when it's this cold.

Me: So you're an HVAC Tech?

Tech: Well, not actually a Tech, but I know how it works.

Me: Well, I'm not actually a Dentist, but I know how teeth work, so what say I come down and check you for cavities and do a quick cleaning? That's no different than what you're doing here - is it?

Me: Get someone in there that is trained on these things. Now.

My son texted me later in the afternoon. The contractor that installed the HVAC in the complex was there and did some programming on the heat pumps, and they started heating again. The original Tech came around and dropped a new in box electric space heater at each apartment.

I'm not trying to trigger a heat pump or political discussion (and Lord knows some of you can be triggered). This was just a case of a perfectly nice, but incompetent person spreading misinformation. That does no good for any of us in any field.

GGross

Yes quite often I will hear that from folks in the field, I just went through it with some actual techs. Diagnosed that it was too cold at +10f, I had the system designed to heat 100% down to -15f (actually a bit more than 100% but I digress) turned out there was a broken propeller on the outdoor unit once we had the better tech investigate.

"heat pumps don't work when it is really cold" is just one of those myths that has been repeated so many times it is stuck in many folks heads and regarded as true. Similar to the idea that slowing flow would increase the amount of heat output in a hydronic system despite the opposite being true

Thanks for looking out for the kids!

EdTheHeaterMan

Illinoisfarmer said:

Son #3 is 20 and lives in a student apartment...

I sent the boy in search of the "Tech", he found the guy a couple apartments away giving the same advice. I had Bubba hand him the phone, we had a short but effective conversation:

Me: You think it's a good idea to have all these kids running their ovens to heat the building?

Tech: Well, that's the only thing we can do right now, the way these units are designed, they need extra help when it's this cold.

Me: So you're an HVAC Tech?

Tech: Well, not actually a Tech, but I know how it works.

Me: Well, I'm not actually a Dentist, but I know how teeth work, so what say I come down and check you for cavities and do a quick cleaning? That's no different than what you're doing here - is it?

Me: Get someone in there that is trained on these things. Now.

My son texted me later in the afternoon. The contractor that installed the HVAC in the complex was there and did some programming on the heat pumps, and they started heating again. The original Tech came around and dropped a new in box electric space heater at each apartment.

Ever since ypu started posting here on HeatingHelp.com I knew that you were a man out standing in his field. But this one takes the cake.. Now you are doing dentistry... Awesome!

ethicalpaul

Wild! So who was this non-tech tech? Who sent him there? There is the responsibility

I loved your line about since it was a phone call and not a text you knew it was important!

Illinoisfarmer

ethicalpaul said:

Wild! So who was this non-tech tech? Who sent him there? There is the responsibility

I loved your line about since it was a phone call and not a text you knew it was important!

My guess is the 'tech' was the guy on call for all the properties to deal with complaints and problems. I can't imagine the things he's dealt with in that environment. Plugged toilets, broken windows and doors - you get the picture, we were all young once In any case, I'm sure he thought he was solving the problem, but this is a 'nice' (as far as student housing goes) complex. The investor/owner/whoever clearly had the buildings designed and engineered to function properly when they were built. I took this as a case of dealing with the symptom, not the problem.

Steamhead

GGross said:

"heat pumps don't work when it is really cold" is just one of those myths that has been repeated so many times it is stuck in many folks heads and regarded as true.

Well, it depends. I've been in homes replacing boilers that also had "cold-weather" heat pumps, and when it got below 20°F or so, they could not maintain temperature. The houses got down into the 50s. So yes, they kept working, but the houses were uninhabitable for the families.

GGross said:

Similar to the idea that slowing flow would increase the amount of heat output in a hydronic system despite the opposite being true

Again, it depends. On a gravity conversion with large pipes, it's very easy to over-pump the system so the water short-circuits through the radiators, thereby not heating them fully. Here is my first experience with this- note that the boiler in the article was replaced about 15 years ago:

https://www.heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/adjusting-the-flow-rate-for-an-old-gravity-hot-water-system/

Some experimentation led to writing this some years ago:

https://www.heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/sizing-circulators-for-old-gravity-hot-water-heating-systems/

Somewhere we have some infrared images of this over-pumping effect. I'll see if I can find them.

ethicalpaul

Steamhead said:

GGross said:

"heat pumps don't work when it is really cold" is just one of those myths that has been repeated so many times it is stuck in many folks heads and regarded as true.

Well, it depends. I've been in homes replacing boilers that also had "cold-weather" heat pumps, and when it got below 20°F or so, they could not maintain temperature. The houses got down into the 50s. So yes, they kept working, but the houses were uninhabitable for the families.

By definition that was a failure of the designer of the system, not the fault of the heat pumps unless we think we can't trust the design documents of these cold-weather systems (I didn't use scare quotes in my use )

pecmsg

Illinoisfarmer said:

Son #3 is 20 and lives in a student apartment. It's a newer building of 20 or so efficiency apartments, with a sleeping area in a loft above the kitchen/bath area. Neat place, he likes it, all kids about his age group, obviously. The apartments are all heated and cooled by a mini-split heat pump with the interior unit mounted on the wall inside the front door, and the exterior unit just outside.

A week ago we had a cold snap (-14 on Sunday morning). I got a call from him (it was obviously serious, since it wasn't a text). His apartment was 45 degrees according to the thermostat, and the blower was putting out cold air. He'd already called maintenance, and the tech was in the area and would stop by soon. About a half hour later, I got a text with this picture attached...



The Tech had been there, said that the Heat Pumps were shutting down due to the cold, and that they were telling all of the tenants to set their ovens at 275, and leave the door open. I wasn't amused. I trust my son not to be stupid (WAY more than his brothers!), and I know that there not a lot of difference between the heating element in an electric heater and an oven. But telling a building full of college kids to use their stoves to heat their apartments seems like a bad idea. Especially when one of the kids is mine, and the one that I actually like!

I sent the boy in search of the "Tech", he found the guy a couple apartments away giving the same advice. I had Bubba hand him the phone, we had a short but effective conversation:

Me: You think it's a good idea to have all these kids running their ovens to heat the building?

Tech: Well, that's the only thing we can do right now, the way these units are designed, they need extra help when it's this cold.

Me: So you're an HVAC Tech?

Tech: Well, not actually a Tech, but I know how it works.

Me: Well, I'm not actually a Dentist, but I know how teeth work, so what say I come down and check you for cavities and do a quick cleaning? That's no different than what you're doing here - is it?

Me: Get someone in there that is trained on these things. Now.

My son texted me later in the afternoon. The contractor that installed the HVAC in the complex was there and did some programming on the heat pumps, and they started heating again. The original Tech came around and dropped a new in box electric space heater at each apartment.

I'm not trying to trigger a heat pump or political discussion (and Lord knows some of you can be triggered). This was just a case of a perfectly nice, but incompetent person spreading misinformation. That does no good for any of us in any field.

Your 1st call should have been to the landlord, "Under State, County and Lacal laws YOU are responsible for minimum heat. You have 3 few hours to get the heat operating or I'm sending them to a hotel room for the night, All expenses Room and Meals WILL be deducted from next month's rent!"

realliveplumber

Then the lawyers get involved, and no one wins.

Except the lawyers.

EBEBRATT-Ed

just a question. When it is -10 how many min in an hour will the HP be defrosting?

EdTheHeaterMan

Mini splits are a different animal completely with their computer circuit boards and inverter compressors, but my heat pump in South Carolina defrosts at 38° ambient for 10 minutes every 90 minutes with the timer dip switched set the way I have them. it may defrost for longer when colder but I can hear it at night lying in bed because the compressor is just outside my bedroom window.

With my condition, I have low blood circulation in my legs, so this whole heat pump thing is a real drag for me. Concrete slab floor, 90° heat pump air circulating all winter, and my feet are frozen all the time. I wish I had my old Radiant Floor heat.

Steamhead

ethicalpaul said:

Steamhead said:

GGross said:

"heat pumps don't work when it is really cold" is just one of those myths that has been repeated so many times it is stuck in many folks heads and regarded as true.

Well, it depends. I've been in homes replacing boilers that also had "cold-weather" heat pumps, and when it got below 20°F or so, they could not maintain temperature. The houses got down into the 50s. So yes, they kept working, but the houses were uninhabitable for the families.

By definition that was a failure of the designer of the system, not the fault of the heat pumps unless we think we can't trust the design documents of these cold-weather systems (I didn't use scare quotes in my use )

Well, they were sold as being able to heat the house when it got that cold. They did keep the pipes from freezing, so that's something. Of course we weren't involved with them- we don't do Freon.

WMno57

EdTheHeaterMan said:

With my condition, I have low blood circulation in my legs, so this whole heat pump thing is a real drag for me. Concrete slab floor, 90° heat pump air circulating all winter, and my feet are frozen all the time. I wish I had my old Radiant Floor heat.

My feet sweat, which also results in cold feet.
How I deal with it:

• PEET shoe dryer (it warms in addition to drying)
  
• Oversize shoes (length and width) Our feet spread out as we age, try a larger size
  
• One pair thick wool socks (wool is still warm when wet)
  
• Change my socks and shoes every 3 hours
  

My PEET shoe dryer runs 24-7 all winter. That way I always have a dry and warm pair ready to go.
https://www.peetdryer.com/ Great product! Made in the USA.
I hope the above helps. If I ever build a house, it will have radiant floors.

HVACNUT

Sounds like it could've been a good life experience if it wasn't interrupted. How do you learn to appreciate heat if you've never frozen your b***s off?

I probably would've waited a day. Let it play out a little before I started ranting. The installers were likely coming anyway. The maintenance crew isn't touching it.

And I think "they did some programming" was actually a quick refrigerant shot because it's leaking. It's not fixed. They just greased the squeaky wheel.

dko

WMno57 said:

My PEET shoe dryer runs 24-7 all winter.

Same!!
Got mine at Red Wings when I got my boots.

Also have an electric towel warmer connected to


Both are game changers