Energy Kinetics and Ecobee not getting up to temperature

mad_hat

We just got an EK 2000 installed and the downstairs zone that also has an Ecobee thermostat can not meet the temperature demand unless we drop the temperature. Is there something going on with the two "smart" appliances, an issue with the settings or is there an install problem? I'm certain I haven't provided enough information so ask away. Thanks in advance.

HVACNUT

Where is your EK dealer? Where they involved in the hookup of the Ecobee's?

Is there a Common for the Ecobee, or is it a power robber (Only 2 wires)? Perhaps it needs a resistor like shown for Nest. Not sure about watts and resistance for Ecobee, but EK should know.

mad_hat

The ecobee was installed a few years ago and worked flawlessly with the old furnace. The ecobee is functioning, as you can see the chart is data mined from it. It's just that the zone almost never gets to temperature and it takes all day to get up to temperature if it does. I think it took 7 hours and a space heater this afternoon.

To answer your question though, I connected an independent DC power supply for the thermostat because the previous furnace didn't have the common.

HVACNUT

mad_hat said:

To answer your question though, I connected an independent DC power supply for the thermostat because the previous furnace didn't have the common.

You mean 24 volt AC, right?

Is the Zone valve open? There's a lever on it that should move freely across the whole track if it's open. It's possible the loop is air locked and needs to be purged.

mad_hat

Yep. It works. Like now, it spent 90% of the day calling for heat. It's 20 out and most of the day the temp in the zone is 67, when the thermostat is set to 68. If I set it to 69, it gets to be 68...but again, stuck with the heat being called all day

Robert_25

What temperature is the boiler?

mad_hat

Boiler temp is 170. Return temp is 167 and dropping. After two hours of calling for heat the zone has dropped one degree. Baseboards are hot and circulator is being called. Every thing seems to be working, I'm just not getting a warmer zone.

And for reference, our old furnace under the same outside temperature conditions, would get up to temperature in 2 hrs. 

HVACNUT

Baseboard is hot all the way through and back to the boiler?
Any portion of this loop on a slab?

mad_hat

All the baseboards are hot. Installer came out and measured temps at the baseboard. He increased the loop temp to 190 and slowed the circulator speed. There has been no change to the temp in the zone. He said that it's because it's cold out and the house is old. So apparently a furnace with larger output and more efficiency can not heat the house that a smaller output and lower efficiency did. Did I make a mistake in paying 50% more for an energy Kinetics furnace because I have poor insulation??

pecmsg

190 in what’s the temperature out?

EdTheHeaterMan

What was the high limit temperature on your old boiler? 200°F or even 210°?
It is assumed that most baseboard heating systems were designed so 180° supply with 160° return (average 170°) is enough for heating your home at design conditions. Your home may not be set up that way and require higher temperature water.

If your old system without an energy manager was set at 200° limit and the return water at the end of the loop was about 160° that would indicate that the radiators were delivering over 720 BTUh per foot (your baseboard output numbers may vary but the principle is the same). With the conservative setting of 167° to 170° on your new boiler your same baseboard heaters are giving you about 550BTUh per foot. That is equal to having about 25% less radiators. This baseboard radiator specification illustrates that fact



Your EK boiler with all the bells and whistles will reduce your operating cost, but you need to get it dialed into your home's system. If resetting the high limit temp from 170 to 190 is not cutting it, perhaps there is a different adjustment that will allow the boiler to maintain a higher operating temperature. (not just a higher limit temperature) during these very cold days. Since I'm not familiar with that Energy Manager's operating logarithms I don't know what those settings are. Your EK Dealer should know. or at least call tech support while at your home and let them talk him thru the adjustments

There is another thing that may have bin happening...
How often does it get this cold for this long in you region? Perhaps this is a once in a 10 year event where you get sustained winds and low temperatures. Your old home may have experienced this same problem 8 to 10 years ago and it happened when you were sleeping but got resolves by the time you woke up.

I had just this same thing happen to me after installing a new "High Efficiency" system and set the control to ECONOMY. That weekend we has a once in 10 year event of extreme cold and the home was 66° when they wanted it 72°. of corse they didn't call over the weekend, but on Monday morning I got an ear full.

A minor adjustment from economy to normal would have solved the problem but they didn't read the manual or call me until it was warmer (high 20s°F) so they just assumed that they made a mistake purchasing that equipment. It was several years before they were satisfied that they got the right job. Their fuel usage dropped and when ever it was really cold, they could turn the economy switch to normal.

Don't worry about your decision. Your system just needs to be dialed in properly.

mad_hat

So with the hot water and two zones calling for heat the return actually got down to 130. Normally I've been seeing 150 though.

It's good to hear that it needs to be dialed in. I'm just not sure the installer agrees. He just implies I have unreasonable expectations to think my house could be 68 when it's 20 outside. The house has not gotten warmer than 63 and the heat has been calling nonstop for 8 hrs in addition to the changes he already made. I've also pulled each baseboard apart to vacuum out and make sure they were all in good shape. So I'm running out of things I can do. 

realliveplumber

Did anything change in the zone that is not heating properly? New flooring?

Can you post a picture of the baseboard?

mad_hat

That's why I'm concerned. The only thing that changed was the furnace and the plumbing attached to it

LRCCBJ

mad_hat said:

All the baseboards are hot. Installer came out and measured temps at the baseboard. He increased the loop temp to 190 and slowed the circulator speed. There has been no change to the temp in the zone. He said that it's because it's cold out and the house is old. So apparently a furnace with larger output and more efficiency can not heat the house that a smaller output and lower efficiency did. Did I make a mistake in paying 50% more for an energy Kinetics furnace because I have poor insulation??

OK, let's get serious here. The system could not care less what is delivering the hot water. It only wants water at a temperature that can heat the space. If the previous boiler sent water to the system at 190 deg supply water temperature and the new boiler sends water to the system at 190 deg supply water temperature, the results MUST BE IDENTICAL.

I agree with the installer raising the temperature to 190. However, we do not know what the setting was on the old boiler, so 190 is just a guess. I do not agree with slowing the circulator as this will result in a higher DT and, effectively provide less energy to the space (although the difference is probably not that significant).

Try the system with 190F supply and run the circulator at full speed and return with the results.

mad_hat

At medium speed, which is where they had it at first, the boiler temp is 190 and the return peaked at 176.

LRCCBJ

mad_hat said:

At medium speed, which is where they had it at first, the boiler temp is 190 and the return peaked at 176.

Return it to high speed. The installer is incorrect in this situation.

Roger

Thank you for your post, @mad_hat , and for everyone’s replies. 

Turn on SmartBoost per the link below. 

https://energykinetics.com/wp-content/documents/display-manager/display-manager-quick-start-guide.pdf

Your manager controls the temperature, and you Hydrostat (DualGard) is only a safety, and should be set at 205/215, not 190 or any other temperature. 
If the burner ever turns off, then the boiler has more capacity than your baseboard can emit; look for this. 

Also check to see if the Ecobee thermostat light on the left side of the manager ever turns off; if it turns off, then we’ll have to figure out why. 

PM me with you installation company name and location and we can coordinate with them as well. 

Thank you, 
Roger 

MaxMercy

The faster the circ runs, the more heat will be delivered to the radiation. If it runs slower, the water will be hotter yes, but LESS water and BTUs make it to the radiation at lower speed.

Sounds like your old school boiler probably had the same issue but the water temp was set higher to fix it.

I would pull the covers off those radiators and blow them clean to get more heat to the air, and if that's not getting it done, you need more radiation.

If your house is leaky, you should tighten the envelope with new windows (or storms if they're missing), doors, gaskets, and attic insulation upgrade. You can also pump in insulation into the walls if the framing doesn't contain any. A tight envelope not only saves money, but *feels* more comfortable at the same room temperature.

mad_hat

Thanks Roger. Turned on Smart boost but I don't think it changed the behavior because the burner still shuts down long before the return gets to 190. It shuts down at boiler temp of 190. Return is at about 170. Burner goes on for 2 minutes and stays off for 7. So we aren't near capacity I guess. Thermostat light has not been off since the furnace was installed. We haven't made temperature in 4 days.
 

neilc

did you also change your Hydrostat setting as recommended?

Roger said:

Your manager controls the temperature, and you Hydrostat (DualGard) is only a safety, and should be set at 205/215, not 190 or any other temperature

sounds like you're still bouncing off the 190

Roger

If the burner light on the right side of the manager is turning off, then the return is getting hot (baseboard is hot all the way through). 

If the burner is off and the manager burner light is on, then it’s turning off from the high limit, which indicates lack of flow through that zone.

Jamie Hall

You don't want the return at 190. In a more or less ideal world, you want the return to be about 20 degrees cooler than the supply -- whatever that is.

The amount of heat delivered to your house is governed by three things: the nature of the radiation -- your baseboards, the average temperature of the water in the baseboards, and the flow rate.

Now we can draw two conclusions from your description of what's happening so far. The first is that apparently the house heated satisfactorily before the new boiler was installed. Therefore, at some temperature (we don't know what) and flow rate (don't know that, either) the system worked. Second, you say that the boiler is turning off from time to time at 190. Therefore, since it reaches 190 and turns off, the boiler is capable of supplying more heat than you are pushing out to the radiation. The only variable left is the flow rate. Is the same pump circulating water now as the one you had before? Or was that changed? In any case, you need more flow.

HVACNUT

I don't understand about the circulator speed, unless I missed something which is very possible. I thought the EK-1 Frontier was shipped with the Taco 007e ECM circulator. There are speed settings on it?

mad_hat

Dual guard is calling the shots and shutting things down at 198. So it's struggling to get the desired return temp. 
I'll be honest, adjusting dual guard is a bit more than I wanted to get into. But room temperature isn't supposed to be 63. 

Jamie Hall

Stop focusing on the temperature and start figuring out how to get the heat out of the boiler and into the house. The supply temperature isn't your problem, just because you can look at it. If the boiler ever shuts off, it's producing more heat than your are getting out to the house.

Period.

Focus on the problem, not on what's on the whizzy readout.

neilc

how bout posting a picture or 2 at the boiler, floor to ceiling, showing the circ(s), tank, and boiler, all in one shot,
but a couple angles

Roger

@mad_hat , what is the return temperature showing on the manager when the DualGard  shuts off? If the temperature is low, then you don’t have adequate flow through the zone.  If it’s 175° or higher, then your baseboard is likely doing all it can.  If the DualGard were set at the proper temperature, then you would have higher temperatures/more heat going out to the baseboard, and the manager may be able to control the burner instead.

Please PM me your installer info and location and we can figure out what’s going on. 
Thank you,
Roger 

mad_hat

@Roger the return temperature is close 186 when the dual guard shuts it down. It's helping even though it's being shut down early. We saw the first degree increase all day! 
I sent a PM earlier so you should have the info you are needing. 
Thanks again. 

And thanks everyone for your ideas and questions. It's been really helpful and I'll let you know when we get to full function. 

mark schofield

The original post said that there are two zones, but only one is problematic after the installation of the new boiler. The upstairs one is OK. What might be the differences between the 2. New or additional plumbing on the downstairs zone? Different thermostats?