Old NYC radiator help

al_bondigas

Moved into an apartment with 2 old steam radiators. A loud air hiss was coming from the larger one, so after a little research I replaced the air valves and that fixed this.
Having 2 issues if anyone can help diagnose:

Long/wide radiator: This radiator has been leaking water from the air valve. It's very hot in my apartment, so I've been keeping the main valve mostly shut. If it's dripping water and I open the valve, water will shoot up & out of the air valve. Should this be bleed? I picked up a vari-air valve and have different size openings to try if need be. Pitch of radiator is good.








Tall/narrow radiator: This radiator makes an obnoxious water gargling sound any time heat is being distributed to the building, no matter the position of the main valve. It's in the bedroom and keeps me from sleeping. Should this be bled? If so, I'm only seeing one possible port up top that has been painted over. How would I bleed this? The pitch is also going the wrong way slightly.







The radiators usually shut off during the day and cool down for working.
Thanks for your expert help!

ethicalpaul

Ironically, attempting to shut those old valves can be making your problem worse. The valves that are old just don't seal very well and they let steam in, where it condenses and collects in the radiator.

The answer isn't bleeding the radiators...there's no bleeding in a steam system. The answer is to fully open those radiator valves and don't touch them.

You control how much steam gets into the radiator with the little silver vents. Yours might be broken and also it sounds like your building maintenance staff, like so many buildings in NYC, has no idea what they're doing. So the system is being allowed to run at too high a pressure, costing fuel for them and frustration for you.

There are things you could do to help yourself regarding the vents, but building management probably wouldn't like it and additionally, there is precious little space on that side of your radiators for you to work.

I suggest looking for a new apartment without steam in NYC. Steam is great, but landlords in NYC are horrible and steam needs more care than they want to provide.

Jamie Hall

Make sure the "main" valves are fully open at all times when the boiler is running. It is tempting to run off a steam radiator with that valve, and that works on two pipe steam -- but not on one pipe. All it does is trap condensate in the radiator which will then gurgle and burp and splurk and otherwise be a nuisance, as you have discovered.

What you can do to reduce the heat if you need to is either put in much slower vents -- or turn the vent upside down. Just turn it over. That will usually shut off the heat to the radiator pretty effectively.

ethicalpaul

@Jamie Hall is right but I'll add a little description to his direction to "just turn it over". If possible, you would rotate the vent one way or the other as possible (righty-tighty would be preferable but may not be possible) until the vent is upside-down from its current position.

This effectively "closes" this type of vent so that it doesn't let the air out next time the boiler calls for heat.

In between calls for heat, the whole system fills back up with air (all the steam condenses) and the vents let the air out when the next call for heat occurs.

But in this cold weather we currently have, they might be running the boiler nearly continuously and this trick only works if the system can fill back up with air between calls for heat...once the system is completely steam filled, you can't stop it.

STEAM DOCTOR

New York City apartment buildings are pretty much a hopeless cause. There's not much you can do. Your radiators are part of the system and you have zero access to 99.9% of the system. Best thing you can do is to make a small hole in the floor. This way when it leaks water, it will cause damage to the apartment below. Maybe then, the powers that be, will take some action. By the way, you didn't hear this from me. And of course, you can always stand next to the radiator when the hot water comes spraying out. Will allow you to get lawyers involved. There are a lot of good personal injury lawyers in New York. Just for the sake of clarity and full transparency, everything in this post is a joke and said in jest. Bottom line, it's probably a hopeless cause.

STEAM DOCTOR

At least for the big radiator, you can get an 1/8 inch ball valve, that will allow you to effectively shut the air vent. But of course if you do this yourself, and the threads in the radiator are messed up, you are screwed. Pun intended. And of course do this with the steam off.

al_bondigas

ethicalpaul said:

Ironically, attempting to shut those old valves can be making your problem worse. The valves that are old just don't seal very well and they let steam in, where it condenses and collects in the radiator.

The answer isn't bleeding the radiators...there's no bleeding in a steam system. The answer is to fully open those radiator valves and don't touch them.

You control how much steam gets into the radiator with the little silver vents. Yours might be broken and also it sounds like your building maintenance staff, like so many buildings in NYC, has no idea what they're doing. So the system is being allowed to run at too high a pressure, costing fuel for them and frustration for you.

There are things you could do to help yourself regarding the vents, but building management probably wouldn't like it and additionally, there is precious little space on that side of your radiators for you to work.

I suggest looking for a new apartment without steam in NYC. Steam is great, but landlords in NYC are horrible and steam needs more care than they want to provide.

Thanks for this. I read in another forum I could try asking MGMT to lower their system pressure? It's probably too high?

al_bondigas

Jamie Hall said:

Make sure the "main" valves are fully open at all times when the boiler is running. It is tempting to run off a steam radiator with that valve, and that works on two pipe steam -- but not on one pipe. All it does is trap condensate in the radiator which will then gurgle and burp and splurk and otherwise be a nuisance, as you have discovered.

What you can do to reduce the heat if you need to is either put in much slower vents -- or turn the vent upside down. Just turn it over. That will usually shut off the heat to the radiator pretty effectively.

Awesome thanks, will try this

al_bondigas

ethicalpaul said:

@Jamie Hall is right but I'll add a little description to his direction to "just turn it over". If possible, you would rotate the vent one way or the other as possible (righty-tighty would be preferable but may not be possible) until the vent is upside-down from its current position.

This effectively "closes" this type of vent so that it doesn't let the air out next time the boiler calls for heat.

In between calls for heat, the whole system fills back up with air (all the steam condenses) and the vents let the air out when the next call for heat occurs.

But in this cold weather we currently have, they might be running the boiler nearly continuously and this trick only works if the system can fill back up with air between calls for heat...once the system is completely steam filled, you can't stop it.

Got it, thanks. Does it matter when I flip the air vent? (during a cycle, or once cycle stops)

al_bondigas

STEAM DOCTOR said:

At least for the big radiator, you can get an 1/8 inch ball valve, that will allow you to effectively shut the air vent. But of course if you do this yourself, and the threads in the radiator are messed up, you are screwed. Pun intended. And of course do this with the steam off.

Cool thanks. That one is in the living room and isn't as bothersome, don't think I want to test my minimal plumbing skills this way ha. But will try and air vent with smaller hole & possibly flipping the vent, as others have suggested.

ethicalpaul

al_bondigas said:

Thanks for this. I read in another forum I could try asking MGMT to lower their system pressure? It's probably too high?

Yes, you can ask them, but expect them not to listen to you

Yes, you can rotate the vent any time you like. There is always some danger that the threads might fail or the vent might break, so be aware of that risk and go gently.

If it does break, just be apologetic and tell them you were attempting to reduce the massive amount of steam they are shoving into your radiator and that your brother-in-law suggested it and then shrug

dabrakeman

You will probably want to take the air vents off and empty them because they likely will have water in them. Then with them upside down in your hand verify that you can't blow through them (not stuck open). The cap on the larger radiator vent is already a 5 (best I can tell from the picture). Can get a 4 which is the smallest but I think you still have to get an entire new vent to do this. See what the number is on the cap on the smaller radiator vent and if that is a 4 you could try it for experimentation purposes on the larger radiator vent. Definitely fully open the inlet valves...

As others say unless you can get the landlord to lower his pressure settings on the systems pressuretrol then slowing your radiators down as much as you can may be about your only option. The vent rate is just proportional to the orifice size. You could probably cobble some method of restricting that orifice yourself if you are handy and want to avoid buying new vents. Can always ask the landlord if he would buy them based on your symptoms. Worst he can only say no. Best case he may we the one in a thousand NYC landlord that may help.

STEAM DOCTOR

Don't touch the air vent. If ANYTHING goes wrong, it's 100 percent your responsibility. Put a piece of tape over the hole. Should stop air movement, which will stop steam movement. Of course, if pressure is high enough, the tape can get blown right off. Lol. But no harm no foul. 

dabrakeman

First step is contacting the landlord and see what you can work out...

neilc

throw a spare blanket over the rad,

Long Beach Ed

Sounds like the little radiator is back-pitched and the condensate's not draining out of it. I would lift the end away from the pipe connection slightly to tilt it toward the pipe. Put some quarters under those feet. Then I'd find a (slower) steam vent with the smallest hole in it, like a Gorton #4 or Hoffman #40. The Hoffman vent best handles the water problem. That will slow the entry of steam and slow down the condensate production. Make sure the valve is fully open.

The big radiator needs its valve fully open and a slower vent.

That's about all you can do from your apartment. Remember that messing with this stuff can get you hurt or killed. This is really the landlord's job.

New York landlords concerned and caring is second to only their generosity. Tell him your problem and I'm certain he'll assign a staff expert to solve it quickly. He'll appreciate your efforts to improve his property.