Snowmelt timelapse

Burnett03

I put together a snowmelt system back in june for my house in Colorado. We finally got some snow so i was able to try it out and i can report that my DIY project works, and works well i believe. My house faces north so it never gets any sun and was turning my sloped driveway into an ice rink. My wife fell once, i fell, but when the chinese food delivery guy fell that was the last straw so i started researching heated driveways. Through my research, mostly on here and Chris Deckers youtube i learned electric was not the way to go so I decided on hydronic. Anyways, thank you for all the information i found searching this site while i was building the system.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/kio3iLd-zb8?feature=share
https://youtu.be/TJbmI75p_sQ?si=bNEx9fE43uy2RBnF

EdTheHeaterMan

I don't know what is better, watching grass grow, watching paint dry or watching this! Knowing you don't need to shovel snow in the morning may be worth the fuel used to do that. The kids in the neighborhood can't make any money on you anymore!

STEVEusaPA

EdTheHeaterMan said:

I don't know what is better, watching grass grow, watching paint dry or watching this! Knowing you don't need to shovel snow in the morning may be worth the fuel used to do that. The kids in the neighborhood can't make any money on you anymore!

I haven't seen a kid shovel snow in 20 years.

Le John

Looks like it works very well. What boiler did you use?

pecmsg

STEVEusaPA said:

I don't know what is better, watching grass grow, watching paint dry or watching this! Knowing you don't need to shovel snow in the morning may be worth the fuel used to do that. The kids in the neighborhood can't make any money on you anymore!

I haven't seen a kid shovel snow in 20 years.

30!

Burnett03

Le John said:

Looks like it works very well. What boiler did you use?

I'll probably get roasted for this but I'm using a Rinnai RU199 Tankless

Burnett03

hot_rod

How about a time lapse of the gas meter😳

Burnett03

hot_rod said:

How about a time lapse of the gas meter😳

Hot rod do you think I'd get better results if I had run the glycol directly through the rinnai instead of using a heat exchanger? I was concerned about putting glycol through it so i separated them.  Now I'm wondering if it would work even better if I hasn't used a heat exchanger..

hot_rod

Any time you go through a heat exchanger you lose a small amount of efficiency. Not knowing how the Rinnai would handle cold, thick glycol, I think the HX is worth the small penality.
What % are you running the glycol?

Burnett03

Cryotek 100 mixed at 60% off their chart.  Refractometer is reading -15C

hot_rod

There are actually 3 temperatures for glycol.
Freeze point, ice crystals start to form, fluid is still pump able
Slush point, fluid turns to a slushee, no longer pump able
Burst point, fluid can freeze hard enough to burst pipes.
Some brands just list freeze and burst.
60% is close to gear oil viscosity when it is cold, 🤔 tough to pump until it starts to warm

Usually 40% is adequate for snowmelts, if it does slush at. -15, typically you are not getting snow or melting.

But if all is working well, go with it.

Get a ph meter and check glycol ph every couple years. It becomes aggressive when ph drops into the low 7, time to boost the inhibitor package.

Burnett03

hot_rod said:

There are actually 3 temperatures for glycol.
Freeze point, ice crystals start to form, fluid is still pump able
Slush point, fluid turns to a slushee, no longer pump able
Burst point, fluid can freeze hard enough to burst pipes.
Some brands just list freeze and burst.
60% is close to gear oil viscosity when it is cold, 🤔 tough to pump until it starts to warm

Usually 40% is adequate for snowmelts, if it does slush at. -15, typically you are not getting snow or melting.

But if all is working well, go with it.

Get a ph meter and check glycol ph every couple years. It becomes aggressive when ph drops into the low 7, time to boost the inhibitor package.

Thank you for explaining all of that to me. One last question before you go if you don't mind.. Do you think it's better to have higher heat into the slab, or more flow on the snowmelt side. Basically if i run my taco 013 on the slowest speed setting the snowmelt picks up more heat in the exchanger and outputs more heat into the slab. However if i speed up the pump speed it picks up less heat but pumps faster through the slab. Which is better?

GGross

You got that backwards, more flow = higher average water temperature, ie, more heat
lower flow = lower average water temperature ie less heat

If you like the way it melts now I would leave it how you have it

hot_rod

A sad myth in the industry that BTU cannot jump off a fast moving flow, or train. So slowing the 0013 will not allow it to pick up more heat.

Simply put, with any heat emitter, the higher the flow, the higher the AVERAGE temperature of the heat emitter which = higher heat output. Examples for fin tube and radiant loops below.

The limitations would be excessive flow causing noise and erosion, or the pumping power required to run a lower delta T. Possibly short cycling a boiler if it is direct piped. So you need to decide the cost or trade out of increasing flow for added heat transfer.

Glycol adds even more pumping power requirements, so thinning the glycol would get you a tad bit more heat transfer also. Uponor goes up to 50% glycol in their sizing tables.

Generally speaking, increasing temperature into the system is the better option for adding some added output.
If you have a design, it should show the output at a designed SWT?

For residential snowmelt, speed isn't usually the main concern. Getting a head start might be workable, warm the drive in anticipation of the snow dump. If you want bare concrete at 8 AM to go to work, for example.
I guess it depends on you needs, snowfall amounts. And wallet.

Sal Santamaura

Next you need to rig a hydroair setup that clears snow off that vehicle parked in the driveway.

realliveplumber

hot_rod said:

How about a time lapse of the gas meter😳

You know the saying... "if you have to ask how much........"

Would there be any advantage to starting the system before the snow builds up, to keep it from accumulating at all?

hot_rod

realliveplumber said:

hot_rod said:

How about a time lapse of the gas meter😳

You know the saying... "if you have to ask how much........"

Would there be any advantage to starting the system before the snow builds up, to keep it from accumulating at all?

There are different classifications for snowmelt that ASHRAE came up with. It has to do with how much snowfall the system can keep up with, and whether striping is acceptable. Class O allows for example allows snow build up. Class 3 would be 100% melting on contact, hospital helipads for example. That class could be 150- 200 btu/ hr per square foot! A slab like that would probably idle all winter, controlled by a slab sensor. Not a poor man’s sport.

On the residential system we did they got tekmar slab sensor controls and a 12 hour spring wound timer that you could turn on before and expected snowfall. Make sure the timer doesn’t, have a lock on function🤓

My son Max worked for a rep on Colorados western slope. He visited Vail City one day for a sales call. He asked how many thousand square feet of snowmelt Vail operated. The engineer told him they measure it in acres now, not square feet!

SlamDunk

every major airport should have this on their runways and taxiways.   

gb99

Burnett03 said:

I put together a snowmelt system back in june for my house in Colorado. We finally got some snow so i was able to try it out and i can report that my DIY project works, and works well i believe. My house faces north so it never gets any sun and was turning my sloped driveway into an ice rink. My wife fell once, i fell, but when the chinese food delivery guy fell that was the last straw so i started researching heated driveways. Through my research, mostly on here and Chris Deckers youtube i learned electric was not the way to go so I decided on hydronic. Anyways, thank you for all the information i found searching this site while i was building the system. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/kio3iLd-zb8?feature=share https://youtu.be/TJbmI75p_sQ?si=bNEx9fE43uy2RBnF

@Burnett03.  Thanks for posting the Timelapse.  We live in Massachusetts and will have to redo our front steps, walkway and driveway at some point.  Could you share links to the information you used to design and install your system?  

Thanks you in advance!

philsego

Luckily, there's no such thing as "climate change." Using heat to melt snow instead of going outside with a friggin shovel for 5 minutes???!!!! If you can't shovel one inch of snow, Colorado is the wrong place to live.

philsego

STEVEusaPA said:

EdTheHeaterMan said:

I don't know what is better, watching grass grow, watching paint dry or watching this! Knowing you don't need to shovel snow in the morning may be worth the fuel used to do that. The kids in the neighborhood can't make any money on you anymore!

I haven't seen a kid shovel snow in 20 years.

I'm 70 and live in New England. I still shovel, especially one inch of snow like in this video.

LMacNevin

Neat to see how the areas with the hottest supply fluid start melting so quickly, while some small patches are stubborn and don't want to melt for hours. I wonder if the tubing was deeper in the concrete in those areas. Did you install insulation below the concrete?

I'm giving a presentation about SIM systems next Tuesday afternoon at AHR Expo, and it would be great to play this video before the presentation officially starts. Can I have your permission to share it?
Our non-profit organization promotes these systems for safety. In fact, PPI has a webpage dedicated to SIM systems https://plasticpipe.org/BuildingConstruction/BuildingConstruction/-Applications-/Outdoor-SnowIce-Melting.aspx?hkey=ee853eff-9bdf-41d8-9a70-4418d2024591

Erin Holohan Haskell

philsego said:

Luckily, there's no such thing as "climate change." Using heat to melt snow instead of going outside with a friggin shovel for 5 minutes???!!!! If you can't shovel one inch of snow, Colorado is the wrong place to live.

@philsego, this comment is uncalled for and antagonistic. Why start your day by tearing other people down? Please follow site rules and be respectful. You do not know the OP's situation or why they chose a snowmelt system. Snowmelt makes a lot of sense for CO and they're sharing this video because this is the first snowfall to test the system out. It doesn't matter how much snow they received. I appreciate them sharing the video so that we can all learn.

Intplm.

@Burnett03
You're a do it yourself!?
Kudos to you on a job well done!

WMno57

Last winter I was in Colorado. Stayed at a Holiday Inn Express. Well kept and they had a professional snow removal service. Couple days before I got there they had a winter slush storm, and then the temperature immediately dropped to below salt melting temps. There was maybe a 4 hour window where shoveling might have made a difference. The sidewalk from the parking lot to the hotel entrance was slightly uphill and had side slope. I've been walking on ice for almost as long as you've been alive @phlsego. I know how to do it (walk like a penguin) and was wearing appropriate footwear. Didn't matter, I went down hard.
Later, the manager was out there with a pick axe. I told him what happened to me and told him about snow melt systems. I even mentioned the HeatingHelp find a contractor tool.
I had a nasty deep bruise for a week. I have strong bones, women and elderly men don't.
My mother broke her hip tripping on those silly plastic carpet protection runners inside her home. Mom and Dad grew up during the depression and were sometimes a little too thrifty. Like people now are too environmentally focused? Penny wise and pound foolish? She fortunately recovered from that, although rehabbing from an injury in your golden years is difficult. My brother and I sold the house right before Covid. The vintage harvest gold carpet was in excellent shape .
My mid 90s grandfather in law was shoveling snow at his Chicago home and broke his hip. He then spent the last 5 months of his life in a hospital bed in his living room.
Environmental fanaticism is going to get people killed.

hot_rod

SlamDunk said:

every major airport should have this on their runways and taxiways.   

A number of airports have radiant melt pads that they push the snow onto.
A long section of highway in Germany, the route to the Buderus factory is snow melted.
The high bridge south out of Reno has a SIM powered by a geo thermal well that you can
see off in the distance.
I think Texas has a number of bridge melt projects in the works now.

Mark Eatherton

This system represent the potentials that I spoke of recently on the Solar forum. If you add a small (1 ton to 5 ton) water to water heat pump, and a preheat storage tank, you can literally harvest the free solar Btu's off of the snowmelt slab and preheat your DHW, which is right there, next to the SIM boiler.

Lance McNevin, I think you need to address this at AHR. These contractors are really missing a huge potential. I honestly believe this type of system can harvest more energy for DHW preheat and other uses (hot tubs, swimming pools building heating etc) than it consumes for SIM. They way Government is headed, if we don't take this active approach, they WILL ban the use of SIM systems due to the "egregious waste of precious resources and contribution to Co2 generation" (Sierra Clubs words, not mine). Control is key, and there are plenty of solutions available to make it work. We have the technology. Why is no one listening? I keep YELLING, and no one responds. Am I really THAT crazy old man??? Get off my driveway! :-)

Seriously, we have the technology, and it CAN be retrofitted to existing systems. Hot Rod spoke of the Vail systems in the Village, They could pre-heat the DHW for all the buildings on their system. This is about the ONLY electrification of heating systems that I feel is worth the effort. 300% solar extraction efficiencies on a FREE source are hard to beat. No tax credits needed, but woulld be nice if they happened. Discussion?

fararelliott

So tremendously great. I'm impressed, and honestly, I found watching the video to be strangely soothing.

Burnett03

Sal Santamaura said:

Next you need to rig a hydroair setup that clears snow off that vehicle parked in the driveway.

Good idea, I'll start planning now.

Burnett03

gb99 said:

Burnett03 said:

I put together a snowmelt system back in june for my house in Colorado. We finally got some snow so i was able to try it out and i can report that my DIY project works, and works well i believe. My house faces north so it never gets any sun and was turning my sloped driveway into an ice rink. My wife fell once, i fell, but when the chinese food delivery guy fell that was the last straw so i started researching heated driveways. Through my research, mostly on here and Chris Deckers youtube i learned electric was not the way to go so I decided on hydronic. Anyways, thank you for all the information i found searching this site while i was building the system.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/kio3iLd-zb8?feature=share
https://youtu.be/TJbmI75p_sQ?si=bNEx9fE43uy2RBnF

@Burnett03.  Thanks for posting the Timelapse.  We live in Massachusetts and will have to redo our front steps, walkway and driveway at some point.  Could you share links to the information you used to design and install your system?  

Thanks you in advance!

Thank you, pretty much everything i learned came from this site and youtube. If you watch the Youtube videos by Chris Decker he explains everything in depth.

https://www.youtube.com/@DeckerChristopherJ

Burnett03

Intplm. said:

@Burnett03
You're a do it yourself!?
Kudos to you on a job well done!

Yes everything was DIY except for pouring the actual concrete. Here are a few more pictures.

Burnett03

LMacNevin said:

Neat to see how the areas with the hottest supply fluid start melting so quickly, while some small patches are stubborn and don't want to melt for hours. I wonder if the tubing was deeper in the concrete in those areas. Did you install insulation below the concrete?

I'm giving a presentation about SIM systems next Tuesday afternoon at AHR Expo, and it would be great to play this video before the presentation officially starts. Can I have your permission to share it?
Our non-profit organization promotes these systems for safety. In fact, PPI has a webpage dedicated to SIM systems https://plasticpipe.org/BuildingConstruction/BuildingConstruction/-Applications-/Outdoor-SnowIce-Melting.aspx?hkey=ee853eff-9bdf-41d8-9a70-4418d2024591

Yes please share the video. The reason it melts quicker there is because that's where all the tubes enter from the back sidewalk so it's hottest there.

Burnett03

realliveplumber said:

hot_rod said:

How about a time lapse of the gas meter😳

You know the saying... "if you have to ask how much........"

Would there be any advantage to starting the system before the snow builds up, to keep it from accumulating at all?

Melting it off once it builds up makes a much better video! However next storm the plan is to preheat like you are saying, the issue is that the Denver metro area is very hard to predict weather wise due to our mountains, so i don't want to preheat the slab and waste gas for no snow.

Burnett03

gb99 said:

Burnett03 said:

I put together a snowmelt system back in june for my house in Colorado. We finally got some snow so i was able to try it out and i can report that my DIY project works, and works well i believe. My house faces north so it never gets any sun and was turning my sloped driveway into an ice rink. My wife fell once, i fell, but when the chinese food delivery guy fell that was the last straw so i started researching heated driveways. Through my research, mostly on here and Chris Deckers youtube i learned electric was not the way to go so I decided on hydronic. Anyways, thank you for all the information i found searching this site while i was building the system.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/kio3iLd-zb8?feature=share
https://youtu.be/TJbmI75p_sQ?si=bNEx9fE43uy2RBnF

@Burnett03.  Thanks for posting the Timelapse.  We live in Massachusetts and will have to redo our front steps, walkway and driveway at some point.  Could you share links to the information you used to design and install your system?  

Thanks you in advance!

My system is pretty basic, and probably unconventional but it works for what I needed. Basically The seven snowmelt loops are filled with glycol and run to a heat exchanger. On the other side is a Rinnai RU199 that is filled with water and a boiler additive to provide the heat. I activate the system through my phone using two Kasa smart switches. One controls the snowmelt Taco 0013 pump and the other turns on the Inkbird temp controller. The inkbird temp controller controls the pump on the tankless side. When return water temps are below xx amount it activates the pump which then turns on the Rinnai to send heated water through the heat exchanger. Once the slap is up to temp the inkbird turns off the pump on the Rinnai side and the snowmelt continues to pump glycol to the slab. When the return water temps from the slab drop 20 degrees the inkbird turns the Rinna pump back on. When the system is "spooled" it will normally run 30-45 mins on, then 30-45mins off, and back on. This continues until i turn the system off. It's a manual system, but has some auto control. I have probes installed in the pipes so i can monitor temps to the rinnai, out of the rinnai and driveway temps to and from. I use a fireboard BBQ WIFI box to do this, haha.

dko

What if it goes on for 12 hours, but if you hadn't turned on the system it could have melted the piled up snow in 4?

hot_rod

It is a nice tube installation.
Interesting control logic. What is the reason for 30-45 minute pulse cycles? Why not let it run full speed until the slab sensor is above freezing temperature, for example. Turn both pumps off, since the flywheel is ramped up now.

The lower the return to the Rinnai, the higher the efficiency, they really pee condensate with 32° return

Burnett03

hot_rod said:

It is a nice tube installation.
Interesting control logic. What is the reason for 30-45 minute pulse cycles? Why not let it run full speed until the slab sensor is above freezing temperature, for example. Turn both pumps off, since the flywheel is ramped up now.

The lower the return to the Rinnai, the higher the efficiency, they really pee condensate with 32° return

Probably because i didn't have that knowledge when i built the system and didn't install a slab sensor. I use the return temps from the driveway to basically control the Rinnai. When the water temp is getting returned at 80 degrees the snow is usually melting pretty good. Then the controller turns off the Rinnai pump. When it senses water temps at 65 it kicks it on again. It might not be 30-45 mins, sometimes it's just 15 on, 15 off. I could run the system non stop until the slab was melted and then turn off, but I tried that once and at the 6 or so hour mark the Rinnai turned off on me. I'm unsure if it has some sort of safety built in to turn it off at a certain continous run time. So having the system pulse on and off at a certain temperature allows the Rinnai to "reset" if that's even what it's doing. I'll be the first to admit the system isn't traditional or 100% professional. The real reason for the control system was because the Tekmar controls were expensive and i was over budget on this so I cheaped out a bit. When i first ran the system hard i ran the condensate drain into a 5 gallon bucket to see just how much it was condensating. It filled the 5 gallon bucket after about 6 hours of run time.

EdTheHeaterMan

FT Young Associates did this job in Richboro PA.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7NqmIDgGec

The following Super Bowl Sunday, while everyone in the neighborhood was digging out the cars to go to work on Monday, My little brother was enjoying the game
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU5utz9bJrA

Burnett03

Intplm. said:

@Burnett03 You're a do it yourself!? Kudos to you on a job well done!

thank you!

jamplumb

Hey Hot Rod, what do you think of the underslab insulation? My understanding is that the bubble stuff is not that good.