What options do I have with this steam two-pipe system?

NYCpizzaRat

Hi folks. Regular homeowner here, looking to learn before I get a pro to do the job.
I want to make sure I have at least the basics so I don't get totally ripped off.. thanks!

My apartment in an NYC coop has what I believe is a steam heat, two-pipe system.
I have 4 convectors between the rooms, of various sizes, the setup on all is the same.
A fin convector stamped "UNIVERSAL, a steam trap stamped "SARCO", and a manual valve.

Generally speaking they work ok. The manual valves also don't work well, so those will definitely be replaced. I also know that the traps are quite old (well over a decade) and I was wondering whether they should be rebuilt or replaced because the radiators don't get as hot as I believe they should (is there an approximate temp they should be at?)?

My biggest question is, can there radiators work with a TRV? My understanding is that a two-pipe system should be able to. I would absolutely love to find a TRV solution that utilizes a modern thermostat that I can place in each room, or at least some sort of a dial + sensor as the heat gets unbearable for quite a few months of the year.

P.S. I have no idea about the foam but I will remove that when the radiators are being serviced...

Thank you

mattmia2

Nothing wrong with the foam, someone was trying to stop drafts form outside coming in to the convector cabinet.

If some heat but don't heat fully the problem is likely someplace outside your apartment although if they are running very high pressures a convector with a failed closed steam trap may heat some by compressing the air that can't vent out.

A TRV on a steam system shouldn't be thought of as separate zoning of each emitter. You should try to get the system mostly in balance first then use the TRV to shut down the emitter only when the room gets too warm because of variability in the heat loss.

NYCpizzaRat

mattmia2 said:

A TRV on a steam system shouldn't be thought of as separate zoning of each emitter. You should try to get the system mostly in balance first then use the TRV to shut down the emitter only when the room gets too warm because of variability in the heat loss.

Thanks for the answer. The system is in a NYC-style balance: they turn it on full-throttle in September and shut it off in May, no matter the temps outside. With 1,200 units in this building ], they won't be doing any thoughtful balancing soon, I tried. This is where I am looking at TRVs for my unit, so I can at least shut the convectors off before it gets to the usual 82F...

TonKa

https://tunstall-inc.com/macon-controls/conversion-inserts/e-z-fit-conversion-kits-continued/

mattmia2

Add a balancing valve or orifice plate with the trv so it doesn't heat fully even when the trv opens fully to throttle things a bit.

NYCpizzaRat

Done some research and will probably end up with Danfoss, in particular 013G8031 Valve and 013G8564 Operator w/ Separate Remote Mounted Sensor & Dial as I have a friend who can get the parts for free. Sadly I couldn't find anything that would allow me to modernize the setup so I can control everything with modern thermostats that are able to connect wirelessly and work with home automation such as Alexa routines etc. Still an upgrade nevertheless so as soon as the weather warms up and the heat is off, I will get going on this project. Thanks all for your help.

Mad Dog_2

Just curious 🤔?   Is your handle based on that 🐀 dragging the Slice of Neopolitan through the streets and few yrs ago?  Mad Dog 🐕 

ethicalpaul

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPXUG8q4jKU

mattmia2

NYCpizzaRat said:

Done some research and will probably end up with Danfoss, in particular 013G8031 Valve and 013G8564 Operator w/ Separate Remote Mounted Sensor & Dial as I have a friend who can get the parts for free. Sadly I couldn't find anything that would allow me to modernize the setup so I can control everything with modern thermostats that are able to connect wirelessly and work with home automation such as Alexa routines etc. Still an upgrade nevertheless so as soon as the weather warms up and the heat is off, I will get going on this project. Thanks all for your help.

you can get 24vac actuators that connect to a trv so you can control the valve with standard 24v controls if you want to do something that complicated.

ChicagoCooperator

One tip - if you aren't getting full output (and it should be done anyway) is to vacuum the fins while you have the covers off, the dust and build-up really reduces output.

KarlW

NYCpizzaRat said:

Sadly I couldn't find anything that would allow me to modernize the setup so I can control everything with modern thermostats that are able to connect wirelessly and work with home automation such as Alexa routines etc. Still an upgrade nevertheless so as soon as the weather warms up and the heat is off, I will get going on this project. Thanks all for your help.

I realize I am coming in a bit late to this discussion, but have you looked at the European valves here?

Netatmo and Eve make Homekit, Alexa, and Google-compatible radiator valve and thermostat systems. They aren't for sale in North America due to broadcast frequencies, but I imported these on my own and they work as advertised. I have smart valves on 11 of my 15 radiators, 2 have the "dial" control, and 2 have the original screw valve. My setup is Netatmo, but if I could do it again, I'd go with Eve brand as they have a separate thermostat you can put in the room to control it.

These companies should make another model on a different change their frequency and get in the North American market! They already have CSA/UL approval (because the UK left the EU) so it is just putting it on the right wavelength.

mattmia2

If they are using spectrum allocated to a different service in the US you won't be allowed to use them in the US.

Jamie Hall

mattmia2 said:

If they are using spectrum allocated to a different service in the US you won't be allowed to use them in the US.

Or if you do and someone happens to trace the resulting interference to you you will be VERY sorry and your troubles with your heating system will be the least of your worries for a number of years. The FCC takes, understandably, an extremely dim view of out of frequency band devices.

KarlW

I am 100% aware of this frequency problem, that's why I mentioned it in my post.

(I am also quite sure I don't bleed out for reasons that I don't want to get to in here).