Steam help in Wyoming

markmarlatt

Greetings from Wyoming. I have a Smith GB250-S-5H steam boiler on a two pipe system. I’m trying to get the system up to date with maintenance. I’ve bought and I am reading ‘We got steam heat’ book.

The first items I had replaced were leaking control valves on the radiators. Next up are steam traps replacement. 

Only one of my steam mains has a vent (a Hoffman 75), the other main looks like the vent was plugged:

Should I get another vent for this main? Should I replace both vents while I’m at it?

I have two radiators on my upper level (three story house) that don’t heat well. I suspect traps are the reason but I’d like to assemble a list and get parts inbound. 

Sadly no one in eastern Wyoming will help me with this system so I’m trying to get myself educated enough to at least get parts acquired.

Both steam mains in the basement run about 45-55 feet on the horizontal and are 2 1/2 inch pipe with insulation intact. 

What size main vents should I be getting? The Hoffman 75 was put in by a local plumber last year who admitted he wasn’t sure the vent was the right size but as neither steam main had a vent at the time, he thought at least one vent should be in place. I’m wondering if both mains need a vent?

My boiler:


 

Thank you in advance and stay warm out there!

PC7060

Hi Mark, welcome to the forum. 

Can you give us some information on the age of the property?  Pictures of the radiators, valves is helpful
as well. 

Insulation looks to be fiberglass so that good. 

ethicalpaul

Is that 2-1/2” as measured (which would be 2”) or actual 2-1/2” pipe?

Either way that’s a lot of main. I would put a Gorton #2 on each one but others would put more.

you can get some idea of how the 76 is doing by seeing how long it takes from steam production to when the steam hits the vent.

markmarlatt

These are the big radiators on my main level (middle of three story). Sarco heat traps mostly with two newer traps I’ll get pictures of.

House was built in 1920 and was coal heated originally. Steam was added in the 50s or 60s with the boiler being replaced in the mid 90s.

markmarlatt

Correction; mains in the basement look to be 2 inch not 2.5.

2.5 comes off the Hartford loop and then reduces to 2 inch about 8 feet before the T which spilts and makes the two mains.

Jamie Hall

If you find that some of the traps are dubious. they are repairable. Barnes ^ Jones or Tungstall should be able to tell you the right repair.

I'd agree with @ethicalpaul on the vents -- I'd put a Gorton #2 on each one. The Hoffman 75 is a very good vent, but it isn't as big. Be sure that there is venting on the returns as well, however -- that is, if anything, even more important than on the mains, since that's the only way air gets out of the radiators.

JUGHNE

I would put a Gorton #2 on each and then add the 75 back next to the #2 on the longest main.

I believe in your book it may show an example of venting "Menorah" or "Antler".

Are those vent locations on the end of steam mains?

How does the rad trap water return to the boiler?

Are there any traps in the basement?

Karl Reynolds

Are you anywhere near Cheyenne? Try Mechanical Systems, Inc. 307-634-7985.

dko

That's a beautiful radiator by the way.

markmarlatt

The one Hoffman 75 and the plug in the picture are at the end of the mains just above the boiler. Water return is via the second pipes. No traps in the basement. Currently there 0 vents on the return lines (2nd pipe) so I’m looking to see if there are plugs near the end of the returns above the boiler. 

Thank you for the reference as I’m 85 miles north of Cheyenne.

Appreciate all the valuable insight. Going to get this system tuned up!

markmarlatt

I have this on the return line T which is just above the boiler:

markmarlatt

Is this the correct Gorton #2?:

dko

Yes

markmarlatt

For the return line vent or vents, what vent make and model should I be looking for? The return line(s) should never have steam in them correct? The function of the return lines is to bring water back to the boiler and allow air to escape the radiators correct?

Thank you!

JUGHNE

That could be someone's test port to see if there is any steam in the dry return.

I have put ports and even open pipes on returns to see if steam shows up.
If it does then that means a trap is passing steam.

Jamie Hall

I'd put a nice big Gorton #2 on the return. And yes, I know they are pricey...

markmarlatt

Ordered two Gorton 2 vents today. I’ve found no place on the return lines in the basement where a vent or vents could be added. Wonder if I should get a plumber engaged to add a vent or vents to the end of the return lines?

I'm guessing that there may have been two vents on this main at some point:

I’m going to swap the Hoffman with the Gorton when it gets here and then maybe put Hoffman in line too. Which vent should be first the Hoffman or the Gorton?

Thank you again!

Jamie Hall

Doesn't make much difference which of the two vents is first -- and two won't hurt.

I'm a little puzzled by the apparent lack of venting on the returns, so let me be sure I have this correctly. You have two steam mains. They both feed radiators through various runoffs and risers. The radiators have traps on the lower outlet end. Those traps go into return lines run up near the overhead in the basement, and then -- near the boiler -- drop down.

Is that correct?

markmarlatt

That is all correct Jamie. Only thing vent like I’ve found on the return is this:

I opened the valve and when the boiler is running I can feel air movement out of the left side (one with the nut in the picture).

Mark

JUGHNE

Assuming that dry return drops to near the floor and connects into the boiler then there is no place for the radiator air to be vented thru their traps.

In normal use that small petcock may have been left open for venting. And closed if steam showed up...the sign of a failed trap element.

IIWM, I would leave it open to monitor for steam.

markmarlatt

Copy that. I’ve left the valve open and I have a catch tray with a water sensor in the tray to alert if any moisture. Wonder if this will help my top floor radiators get warmer as they only heat to about half the length of the radiator…

Many thanks!

Steamhead

markmarlatt said:

Copy that. I’ve left the valve open and I have a catch tray with a water sensor in the tray to alert if any moisture. Wonder if this will help my top floor radiators get warmer as they only heat to about half the length of the radiator…

Many thanks!

Would a vent in that location be able to vent all the dry returns? If so, that's where you'd put a Gorton #2.

markmarlatt

Steamhead it would be able to vent both return lines as the T in the picture and the that valve is connected to the T on the highest of the returns. 

Would I use a Gorton #2 which is the same I’ve ordered for my two mains?

Thank you.

Jamie Hall

markmarlatt said:

Steamhead it would be able to vent both return lines as the T in the picture and the that valve is connected to the T on the highest of the returns. 

Would I use a Gorton #2 which is the same I’ve ordered for my two mains?

Thank you.

Yes, and do it. But in the meantime try leaving the valve open. If you never get steam, be happy. Very happy. That means your traps are at least not leaking steam -- and it is very rare for a trap to fail closed.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I would put vents on those returns. Traps are........................traps. They can't be trusted. Any air going through the radiator traps has to have a place to get out.

Notice the old tee in the last picture with the rounded corners on the tee. That is a VERY old fitting. The house may have been built in 1920 but that fitting was 20 years old when it was installed.

markmarlatt

Well after leaving the valve open on the return for half a day, I am getting a very slow drip from it so I have a trap somewhere passing steam.

That said, I now finally am getting steam to my main level powder room radiator. Too bad the control valve is shot:

More to add to the parts list. The trap on this radiator looks ancient:

Going to be interesting replacing or rebuilding that trap.

Go steam and thanks again for all the great info!

Steamhead

That's an old Marsh #1 trap. You can get rebuild kits from both Barnes & Jones and Tunstall.

Jamie Hall

I'm bit sure that a slow drip from that vent would necessarily indicate a bad trap. Steam would, but that's not what you have. Consider: how humid is the air in that return pipe going to be?

EBEBRATT-Ed

Traps are not 100%. They will always pas a little steam when opening and closing.

JUGHNE

The amount of condensation/drip you get from that open vent would depend upon how close it is to any traps.

The open pipes I did on dry returns was extended up as high as practical and then gooseneck fittings down towards the floor.

If eventually you do put a G2 vent there, remember you will not see the steam.
It will close the vent and you may never know that steam hit it unless you feel it with your hand.
Or the system operates as it did before you opened the air vent/cock.