Timken Silent Automatic Boiler

Bob6265

My house was built in 1941 and I still have the original boiler. You would think living in Maine, that someone would know about them. Can some give the correct steam settings? Much appreciated!

Jamie Hall

That should be in a museum... that said, I'd reduce both the cutin and the differential by about half a pound each -- but be careful and do no bottom either one out. Further, if the screws turn hard and the system is working OK, leave it. It ain't broke, so don't fix it.

kcopp

Ha.
I just pulled out a hot water version of that.
Its not that different than most...
Where in maine?

Bob6265

Westbrook 

kcopp

Drop the pressure just below 2 psi.
Are you having issues?

Bob6265

kcopp said:

Drop the pressure just below 2 psi. Are you having issues?

I think so. My radiators aren't getting really hot like they normally do and when I fill the boiler up with water it goes to the low point overnight.

Bob6265

Bob6265 said: correction: aren't getting really hot

kcopp said:

Drop the pressure just below 2 psi. Are you having issues?

I think so. My radiators aren't getting really hot like they normally do and when I fill the boiler up with water it goes to the low point overnight.

kcopp

How often are you adding water?

Bob6265

kcopp said:

How often are you adding water?

Every day

Jamie Hall

Bob6265 said:

kcopp said:

How often are you adding water?

Every day

Oh dear. Then I'm sorry, but you have a leak -- a serious one -- somewhere, and I'd have to wonder if that old boiler hasn't finally just given up. The low water cutoff is working? You're sure? If so, you can run it, but keep a close eye on the water level. Leaks don't get better with time... Without a working low water cutoff, you really shouldn't run it, but if you can have someone there ALL the time ready to turn off the boiler if the water is low... maybe. But that's ALL the time that the boiler is running, 24/7

kcopp

You may very well have a leak. It could be above the water line. Steam is running up the chimney each time you are firing the boiler.
If you go outside do you see that happening?
You could also fill the boiler above the gauge glass to see if water floods out...if you are comfortable doing that.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I wonder if the old Timken vertical rotary burner is still kicking around in the basement.

When I was a kid in the early 60s our neighbor was an oil burner guy. His company was installing Timken's back then. Great burners and verry efficient.

Bob6265

Jamie Hall said:

kcopp said:

How often are you adding water?

Every day

Oh dear. Then I'm sorry, but you have a leak -- a serious one -- somewhere, and I'd have to wonder if that old boiler hasn't finally just given up. The low water cutoff is working? You're sure? If so, you can run it, but keep a close eye on the water level. Leaks don't get better with time... Without a working low water cutoff, you really shouldn't run it, but if you can have someone there ALL the time ready to turn off the boiler if the water is low... maybe. But that's ALL the time that the boiler is running, 24/7

I can hear the low water cutoff kickin periodically. I fill it at night and go down each morning to fill it back up. May be time for a new one.

mattmia2

Are you sure there's not a vent stuck open somewhere?

Or a buried return that is leaking?

Does the water level fall if it isn't firing?

Bob6265

mattmia2 said:

Are you sure there's not a vent stuck open somewhere? Or a buried return that is leaking? Does the water level fall if it isn't firing?

The water level only drops when the heat is on. When the water heater runs I haven't noticed a change in water level.

kcopp

Thats a classic symptom of a leak/ crack/ rotted out section above the water line.

HVACNUT

Bob6265 said:

I can hear the low water cutoff kickin periodically. I fill it at night and go down each morning to fill it back up. May be time for a new one.

Please come back here BEFORE you have it replaced to pick the brains of the steam pros here. There's ALWAYS people posting after the installation with their steam horror stories. 

Are the copper pipes returns? Does Timkin get piped differently than a typical steam boiler? Looks like the riser goes right up to the ceiling. 

Bob6265

Noticed this morning lots of steam coming out the chimney. I assuming that's the sign to replace the system.

Jamie Hall

Bob6265 said:

Noticed this morning lots of steam coming out the chimney. I assuming that's the sign to replace the system.

yup

KC_Jones

HVACNUT said:

Bob6265 said:

I can hear the low water cutoff kickin periodically. I fill it at night and go down each morning to fill it back up. May be time for a new one.

Please come back here BEFORE you have it replaced to pick the brains of the steam pros here. There's ALWAYS people posting after the installation with their steam horror stories. 

Are the copper pipes returns? Does Timkin get piped differently than a typical steam boiler? Looks like the riser goes right up to the ceiling. 

^^^^^ Can not emphasize this enough.

Knowing what I do, I'd start with calculating my own boiler size before even calling a contractor. This is the most common mistake they make, over sizing the boiler and you really, really don't want it oversized.

If you want any help with anything, just let us know and we are happy to help.

Bob6265

KC_Jones said:

Bob6265 said:

I can hear the low water cutoff kickin periodically. I fill it at night and go down each morning to fill it back up. May be time for a new one.

Please come back here BEFORE you have it replaced to pick the brains of the steam pros here. There's ALWAYS people posting after the installation with their steam horror stories. 

Are the copper pipes returns? Does Timkin get piped differently than a typical steam boiler? Looks like the riser goes right up to the ceiling. 

^^^^^ Can not emphasize this enough. Knowing what I do, I'd start with calculating my own boiler size before even calling a contractor. This is the most common mistake they make, over sizing the boiler and you really, really don't want it oversized. If you want any help with anything, just let us know and we are happy to help.

Thanks all for the great comments/advice! Someone coming to look at it today! I had it moved about 20 years ago and for some reason they replaced some of the pipes with copper. I will be looking for an efficient unit for a pretty standard 3 bedroom cape with a pretty open downstairs floor plan. The area to be heated is about 1400 sf.

Jamie Hall

Just keep in mind that steam boilers are sized based on the radiation they power, not on the heat loss of the structure. Not all contractors got the memo...

mattmia2

HVACNUT said:

Does Timkin get piped differently than a typical steam boiler? Looks like the riser goes right up to the ceiling. 

Old boilers had enough space inside the hx to separate the steam and water, the header needing to separate the steam and water only happened as boilers got smaller to make them a bit more efficient.

ethicalpaul

"needing" is too strong a word. Every modern boiler puts dry (enough *) steam into the header provided the water isn't fouled by too much dirt and/or oil

* "dry steam" is a specific term and I think no residential boiler ever has created it...it seems to require superheating the steam

dabrakeman

Find a leak?

Bob6265

I read some online reviews and it "seems" Thermo-Pride, American Standard, Williamson and Lennox brands consistently get really good reviews. Any brand/model preference? I used an online calculator and it said I need about 63,000 BTUs

mattmia2

Peerless. Weil Mclain. There are a couple others and a couple that are rebrands of these. It is more important that you have someone that understands steam well install it.

I think all of the ones you listed are rebrands, those are more forced air furnace manufacturers.

WMno57

Bob6265 said:

looking for an efficient unit for a pretty standard 3 bedroom cape with a pretty open downstairs floor plan. The area to be heated is about 1400 sf.

All steam boilers are the same efficiency. There is no high efficiency steam boiler. They are all the same.

Bob6265 said:

I used an online calculator and it said I need about 63,000 BTUs

Steam boilers are sized to the volume of the radiators. Size of the home and insulation has nothing to do with it.

ChrisJ

WMno57 said:

Bob6265 said:

looking for an efficient unit for a pretty standard 3 bedroom cape with a pretty open downstairs floor plan. The area to be heated is about 1400 sf.

All steam boilers are the same efficiency. There is no high efficiency steam boiler. They are all the same.

Bob6265 said:

I used an online calculator and it said I need about 63,000 BTUs

Steam boilers are sized to the volume of the radiators. Size of the home and insulation has nothing to do with it.

I understand that's what is recommended here, but I respectfully disagree.

I would add up the EDR of the radiators and look at the piping, and then compare it to the heatloss of the building and make a decision. I feel the heatloss of the building should play a large roll in sizing a steam boiler.

KC_Jones

Bob6265 said:

I read some online reviews and it "seems" Thermo-Pride, American Standard, Williamson and Lennox brands consistently get really good reviews. Any brand/model preference? I used an online calculator and it said I need about 63,000 BTUs

There really isn't an online calculator for steam. Need to measure all the radiators and develop an EDR number to compare to the boiler output. Here is a link to on I've reference quite a bit. Start at bottom of page 9.

https://www.weil-mclain.com/sites/default/files/field-file/Weil-McLain_BoilerReplacementGuide_WM2012-web_0.pdf

mattmia2

You size a boiler based on the size of the radiators connected to it. You match the output of the boiler to the amount of steam that the radiators can condense. The measure of the size of the radiators is called EDR, Equivalence of direct radiation. It is a measure of the effective surface area of the radiator.

Bob6265

Here's what he's recommending 
Burnham Mega-Steam 

MST513 123,000 BTU Output, 513 Sq. Ft. Steam Boiler w/o Tankless Coil (Oil)

delcrossv

Here's a thread with that boiler very well (re)piped. Correct near boiler piping is essential for correct operation.
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/181765/burnham-megasteam-513

mattmia2

Did they measure the radiators?

Bob6265

mattmia2 said:

Did they measure the radiators?

He walked around and looked at each one and also based it on the existing system.

KC_Jones

Bob6265 said:

mattmia2 said:

Did they measure the radiators?

He walked around and looked at each one and also based it on the existing system.

That’s a gigantic red flag for me.

The existing system is 100% irrelevant.

I’d strongly suggest using the worksheet I posted and figuring it out yourself for a reality check. He could be right, could be wrong. We can help with this, the calculations aren’t hard and figuring out the EDR of a radiator isn’t hard.

neilc

you came here asking for advice,
and you got the best you can from very knowledgable folks here,

steam boilers are sized to the connected radiators, not to a house heatloss calc,
too large and you're back here asking why it's cycling every 2 minutes,
spitting from the vents, and hard to get even heat floor to floor and room to room,
too small and you're back asking why 1/2 the rads never warm up(this scenario you won't worry about with your current contractor)

he needed to measure each typical rad, and match that size and style to charts to get your correct boiler sizing,
this is something you could still do to check on the accuracy of your contractor,

when you come back asking why you have issues, some of the folks above will snicker, some of those might answer, good luck to you,
you should try for another contractor, or 2

kcopp

I am over an hour away.
Otherwise, I would consider running up there.

Bob6265

Thanks for all the additional comments! I plan to do the EDR calc in the AM. I'll post the results.  Thanks again!

EdTheHeaterMan

ChrisJ said:

I understand that's what is recommended here, but I respectfully disagree.

I would add up the EDR of the radiators and look at the piping, and then compare it to the heatloss of the building and make a decision. I feel the heatloss of the building should play a large roll in sizing a steam boiler.

Good Luck with that, Tell us how it works out for you Chris!

Actually the actual heat loss should have a large roll in sizing the radiators in each room. If those radiators were installed over 60 years ago, and the home has been sealed up re windowed and insulated, then you should get all new radiators to match the needs of the rooms. Then when you add up the EDR it will be a lower number. That is how you should do it.

Aside from doing that, if you have 75% more radiator than you need or 125% more radiator than you need, and you put in a boiler that is too small for the connected radiation, you will have some problems getting the house evenly heated. If all those connected metal parts, pipes and radiators condense all the steam before it gets to the last 20% to 30% of said metal parts, what will you do to make more steam? Add a section or two to the boiler you got that was too small, and some more burners?

I repeat: Good Luck with that!

mattmia2

@EdTheHeaterMan it would make it very sensitive to balancing, but couldn't you balance the venting such that say 60% of everything heats?