Repeated Air in Fuel/Fuel Line

holocron

We have a steam oil boiler that had been running great until recently. We purchased this home just over a year ago and haven't had major issues. Some particulars:

Boiler: Smith BB 14A-S/W-4, installed in 1994 (yes, old hunk of cast iron, works great)
Controller: Carlin Pro-X MOdel 70200
Pump: Suntec A2VA-7116-B
Tank: underground about 30' away from boiler; 275gal; supposedly replaced a few years ago
Fuel Lines: appear to run under the basement slab; unknown if tank is top fed, i assume it is; appears to have been a two fuel line in past and single line now
Indirect Water Heater w/ Aquastat

fuel line > shutoff valve > another shutoff valve > filter > vacuum gauge > fittings > pump

We've been running on B10 and our supplier transitioned to B20 over the summer. We have not had issues until recently.

A little over a week ago, a tech was out for an annual tune up. Everything was fine, but we did discover that a draft inducer on the flue (weird routing requires it) was not actually powered. Tech used the unused "valve" terminal on the controller to power it. Worked great.

About two days after the tech was here for the tuneup, we had a lockout-no flame. Pump lost prime, filter was empty. Tech hand pumped fuel line, primed pump, everything worked.

Next day, lockou-no flame. New tech came out (worked on the boiler previously and knows his stuff) and found pump lost prime, some fuel in filter. Did a bunch of things: replaced filter; replaced gaskets on filter housing; replaced a vacuum gauge; put in a "disconnect" fitting between filer and pump to make it easier to connect hand pump if needed; primed pump; tested; waited 30 mins with off; tested again and OK,

Two days later, same issue. Tech came and primed pump; foamy pink fuel.

Next day, same issue. Same tech, same thing. (this coincided with a fuel delivery)

Again yesterday, same thing.

Two of the tech have suggested a Tigerloop. I guess it makes sense. My research seems to say that this is good for B20, long fuel runs, and what's happening above.

However, it still seems coincidental to me that the issue happened after the initial tune up. None of the techs at this point have considered the pump or the two shut-off valves on the supply side between fuel line and filter. (two valves is evidently a local thing).

It just seems to me like there are several other components--valves, pump--that could be the issue before we need to install the Tigerloop. Yes, it could be somewhere on the fuel line and tank.

Welcome any thoughts, comments, questions...

Jamie Hall

A Tigerloop in this situation is a bandaid. Somewhere in that fuel line someone introduced a nice vacuum leak and before you stick a Tigerloop on there it needs to be found. B10 vs. B20 has nothing to do with it.

EdTheHeaterMan

I agree with @Jamie Hall on finding the leak. This leak is a result of the work that was completed during the tune up. I would let them put a tigerloop on at their expense. I would not pay for any of the service visits... My company would not charge you for any of those visit as a matter of policy. Even if I eventually found that the problem was not caused by the tune up and just coincidental happened at the same time. (Benefit of the doubt). Stand your ground on this. Talk to the manager or owner if need be. You had a working system before the tune up and now you don't. This is their problem to fix.

They should have someone at that company that knows how to diagnose a vacuum leak on an oil line!

EDIT: Side note about coincidence... has there been any yard work near the oil tank that may have involved digging?

EdTheHeaterMan

A little over a week ago, a tech was out for an annual tune up. Everything was fine, but we did discover that a draft inducer on the flue (weird routing requires it) was not actually powered. Tech used the unused "valve" terminal on the controller to power it. Worked great.

This is actually incorrect use of the valve terminal. The motor terminal should power the inducer along with a proving switch of some type. the proving switch will then allow the burner motor to start. with your set up on the "valve Terminal" operating the inducer, the control can get incorrect diagnostic information from a problem with the inducer.

holocron

EdTheHeaterMan said:

I agree with @Jamie Hall on finding the leak. This leak is a result of the work that was completed during the tune up. I would let them put a tigerloop on at their expense. I would not pay for any of the service visits... My company would not charge you for any of those visit as a matter of policy. Even if I eventually found that the problem was not caused by the tune up and just coincidental happened at the same time. (Benefit of the doubt). Stand your ground on this. Talk to the manager or owner if need be. You had a working system before the tune up and now you don't. This is their problem to fix.

They should have someone at that company that knows how to diagnose a vacuum leak on an oil line!

EDIT: Side note about coincidence... has there been any yard work near the oil tank that may have involved digging?

I am on a service contract, so I have not been charged for any of the work to date.

I agree that the Tigerloop seems like a bandaid. We might keep this boiler as a backup/supplement to a new heat pump system and I have actually been considering moving tank to basement.

No, there has not been any work in the yard. However, now that I think about it, the drain line from the kitchen was snaked the day after the tune up. I suppose IF the fuel line ran parallel and adjacent to the drain pipe something could have happened, but this seems extremely unlikely.

STEVEusaPA

You actually had an underground tank put in a few years ago? Better ask for the permit and the registration number from the previous owner.

holocron

STEVEusaPA said:

You actually had an underground tank put in a few years ago? Better ask for the permit and the registration number from the previous owner.

We have the information and it was tested before we purchased the property. perhaps I should not have used the word "supposedly."

EBEBRATT-Ed

I have never heard of a 275-gallon underground oil tank.

I would install a refrigeration sight glass in the fuel line. If you have bubbles you will see it. They make flare sight glasses

LRCCBJ

I've been chasing a suction leak for the past month. Due to a tank replacement, I rerouted the line on the floor to an overhead line to the burner. The tanks are above ground and the lift is less than two feet if the tanks are near empty.

Should be no problem............you would think.

Thanks to Steve's advice regarding how to bleed using a radiator overflow tank with some clear tubing, you are able to monitor the bleeder and see if the air remains present in the bleeding process. In my case, it is ever present. Usually a small, steady stream of small bubbles with the additional periodic slugs of air.

The only way to find the suction leak(s) is to very methodically work your way from the pump backwards toward the tank. Disconnect the flare fitting closest to the pump and install a plug. Start the pump and raise the vacuum to about 12 (with a connected vacuum gauge). Shutoff the pump. Either it holds..........or it doesn't. If it holds, you move away to the next flare fitting and repeat. If it does NOT hold at the first flare fitting, your suction leak is between the first flare fitting and the pump...........usually one of the hard pipes..........or the filter itself (easily done if the gasket doesn't seat or the tiny phenolic washer is left off the attaching bolt or the bleed screw).

For me, I am now back all the way through seven flare fittings, 60 feet of 1/2" tubing, one manifold, one Parker water separator/filter, and a few 3/8" hard piped connections near the tank. There was ONE bad flare (a union).

I have only two flare fittings left to check before I reach the valve beneath the tank.

It's a slow and tedious process to find a (several) suction leaks and nobody wants to spend the time to do it.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@LRCCBJ

Lazy technicians. Now most would install the latiest "Band Aid" the tiger loop which just attempts to cover up the problem. If the suction line is tight you will have no air leak.

There is NO substitute for a tight suction line.

LRCCBJ

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

There is NO substitute for a tight suction line.

Exactly right.

Which is why I will spend the remaining December until I find it!

holocron

We had a flame out and latchup again last night. I know how to bleed/prime pump at this point, but I figured I paid for a service contract, so I will make them do it.

Tech seemed to find oil on the side of the pump and took it apart, cleaned, put in new gasket. Re-seated all of the plugs on the pump. Redid all the fittings between the pump and the filter. Basically all the things told the company that need to be done. Held overnight with no issue. I turned it all off so system would sit idle for several hours. Time will tell...

Grallert

If in fact there is a 275 buried in your yard I'd be worried. I've never seen a 275 rated for burial. I've seen a few buried 275's all leaking. I'd also be worried about the fuel line. A leaking supply line is a nuisance a leaking return line is a nightmare.

holocron

Updates:

No tigerloop installed. Line partially clogged and cleared.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@holocron
Guess that would do it.

EdTheHeaterMan

Pressure will find the leak pretty fast. I have placed an air tank hard piped to a pressure regulator (like for nitrogen tank) and put 2 psi of pressure on the entire fuel line to see where the leaking flare fitting is. They show up pretty quick. You will want to remove the fuel line from the fuel pump, then put a flare plug on that end of the fuel line. I always put the pressure at the tank end just in case someone placed a check valve or a one direction Fir-o-matic valve in the fuel line somewhere. If the leak does not show up at 2 PSI, then I can increase it to 10 or 20 PSI.

You never want to put any pressure over 2 PSI on a fuel pump or an oil tank. You test just the fuel line by isolating it. Takes less than 15 minutes to set up and saves lots of time, over the method described by @LRCCBJ above. My luck, I would redo every flare using that method and finally fix the one leaking flare, but create 2 more leaking flares in the process.
Now I back to square one with the same problem times 2

LRCCBJ

EdTheHeaterMan said:

My luck, I would redo every flare using that method and finally fix the one leaking flare, but create 2 more leaking flares in the process.
Now I back to square one with the same problem times 2

Apparently you have been watching me as my luck is exactly the same.

I did do some further investigation and have concluded that the Ridgid 345 is the problem. It leaves a very slight step (maybe .004") at the very top of the flare inside the tube. No amount of varying the process eliminates this small step and the step will definitely prevent a proper seating of the flare.

So, it is now the YellowJacket 60295 with the eccentric flare that I am hoping will fix all my issues with the flares.

I do see why nobody wants to see any elevated tubing on one pipe. Everything must be perfect.

EdTheHeaterMan

Reaming the tubing properly will remove that step. The tubing cutter leaves the rolled over burr that MUST be removed or any flaring tool will make that step. I remember my first tool set that i purchased from Sears Roebuck on Roosevelt Blvd. in Philadelphia. The standard flathead screwdriver that I put in my tool pouch was the perfect size for reaming that tubing. But today, the tubing is made cheaper, and I stopped carrying that screw driver when the 4-in-one drivers became popular. So I learned how to cut the burr off with a Stanley Utility Knife. I could get a perfectly square edge both inside and out. Rarely had a leaking flare. But I have noticed over the years that the copper seems to be softer and I notice more and more bad edges.

Good luck with your flares.

PS
The one I circled in red was the perfect reamer for 3/8" OD copper tubing.


I kind of remember the stubby also had the same blade end.

LRCCBJ

I am confident that the burr was entirely removed via the use of a proper deburring tool:

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcS297cPa_7aGQm5bm1ACnCfsBb_jG9bF0Gmj9NIJgm_xE3w8tHjHZeSero6b3jVi9wwnCDpnWQj3HeggqRcvwmFY6ra1thEti6y_HZ_VmpJbKPo810BAt_C

The cause must be something else.

EdTheHeaterMan

I have also used that tool. I kept on in the flaring tool case. I melted a spot in the plastic molded part to hold it. That way I knew when it was missing and look for it before leaving the job. But in the 1960s and 70s when I was taught how to make a good flare, I was taught with the one that folds behind the tubing cutter that came with the flaring tool.
I just found the the craftsman screw driver was the perfect one for 3/8" copper and did not completely cut the burr away but sort of swaged it into shape. But that don't work on the copper tubing made with Chineseum.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Oil filters were usually the culprit when it came to suction leaks. The old fulflow filter in the old days the replacement cartridge came with a hard fiber gasket like cardboard that was NG.

Also, a lot of guys don't bother changing the small gaskets on filters around the bolts and bleeder fittings which are prone to leak.

LRCCBJ

EdTheHeaterMan said:

I have also used that tool. I kept on in the flaring tool case. I melted a spot in the plastic molded part to hold it. That way I knew when it was missing and look for it before leaving the job. But in the 1960s and 70s when I was taught how to make a good flare, I was taught with the one that folds behind the tubing cutter that came with the flaring tool.
I just found the the craftsman screw driver was the perfect one for 3/8" copper and did not completely cut the burr away but sort of swaged it into shape. But that don't work on the copper tubing made with Chineseum.

I need to do a much more thorough check on the result that is provided by the deburring tool. My vision is not the best and it may be possible that the tool does a fine job of "polishing" the burr so that it looks beautiful but leaves a bit of material just below it.

I cannot come up with any possibility that the cone on the Ridgid could possibly cause this issue.

I may get a small tapered stone on an arbor that fits the ID of the 1/2" tube and use a drill to ensure that all of it is removed.

LRCCBJ

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

Oil filters were usually the culprit when it came to suction leaks. The old fulflow filter in the old days the replacement cartridge came with a hard fiber gasket like cardboard that was NG.

Also, a lot of guys don't bother changing the small gaskets on filters around the bolts and bleeder fittings which are prone to leak.

Well noted. Thankfully, the fuel pump holds vacuum through the hard piping...........past the vacuum gauge...............through the filter...........to the first tubing connection. All new gaskets (including the tiny one for the screw) in the filter housing.

EdTheHeaterMan

LRCCBJ said:

I need to do a much more thorough check on the result that is provided by the deburring tool. My vision is not the best and it may be possible that the tool does a fine job of "polishing" the burr so that it looks beautiful but leaves a bit of material just below it.

I cannot come up with any possibility that the cone on the Ridgid could possibly cause this issue.

I may get a small tapered stone on an arbor that fits the ID of the 1/2" tube and use a drill to ensure that all of it is removed.

I feel your pain! I remember using the cell phone camera to enlarge the picture of the flare to inspect my flares.