My pressure tank to the well is filling very slowly

ColdMainer

Kids were taking a bath, ran the washer machine etc etc. 

Kitchen sink ended up not running. Went in the basement to see the pump was off on alarm. A safety feature so it doesn't over heat. The Pressure Tank gage was at 0.

When I'm not running water, the Pressure tank fills to where it should be. Somewhere around 50 PSI. But very slowly. There's something going on where it can't pull enough water to keep up with my pump when we run accessories or shower. 

Any ideas/tips? I've already tried tapping the nipple to the pressure switch and see the contacts arch. I'm wondering if the pressure switch is plugged up with sediment? Also.. in this picture I posted, I have a smaller pressure tank above... it's heavy and I can tell there's definitely water in it. I'm not quite sure what it is for and if it's supposed to have water in it or not? And if that is a separate issue all in itself..

Again, any help would be awesome.

Intplm.

You are on the right track.
The nipple connecting the pressure switch to the tank cross is probably plugged.
If you decide to go to the trouble of repairing it yourself, I would change the nipple and the pressure switch.
Be sure to have the pressure switch set at the pressure of your tank on the floor.

As to the tank above.
Your description tells me that this tank is water-logged and should also be replaced.
I'm guessing that tank is installed because you have or have had a closed domestic water system that had or has a backflow preventer or check valve installed somewhere. I cant be sure due to the angle of the picture.
That tank will need to be replaced too.

Jamie Hall

I agree on the second tank. It may also have been used for water hammer, or for hot water expansion.

On the well, though... not so sure. What I read is that eventually the well pump can boost the pressure to your set 50 psi, but it does it very slowly. Further, that when it does finally get there the pressure switch opens as it is supposed to.

This tells me that your surmise is quite correct: there is something going on which keeps your well and pump from keeping up, or even being close to keeping up.

So... what kind of pump are we dealing with here, since the possible problems are different for different arrangements. Is this a shallow well jet pump (the pump is in your basement, most likely, and there is a single suction pipe from the pump going down the well with a foot valve)? Is it a deep well jet pump (the pump is, again, in your basement, but there are two pipes down the well, and the jet itself is at the bottom or near the bottom of the well)? Or is it a submersible pump (the pump itself is down in the well somewhere)?

There are two problems which are more or less independent of the type of pump: first, the pump motor may be failing. This is rare, but does happen (a good submersible, for instance, has an expected life of more than 50 years). Related, the pump impellor or impellors may be damaged, usually from sand or silt in the well water. The second is far more serious: something may have changed in the well itself, or in the vicinity of the well, so that either standing water (when the pump is off) or the rate at which water can reenter the well (called recharge) has dropped. Either one will mean that your pump has to lift the water from a greater depth than previously, and will result in reduced flow (in the extreme, of course, the water level will drop to the pump intake or the pump itself, for a submersible, and result in no flow at all to speak of)(if a submersible is run dry, it will fail very quickly, by the way, so you don't want to do that).

With jet pumps -- either deep well or shallow well -- there is a strainer at the bottom of the pipe in the well. This should never get clogged, but there is a chance it might if, somehow, something might have gotten dropped into the well. There is also a foot valve down there which could get clogged or hang up partly closed, though again that is rare. Either could be checked, however, by pulling the drop pipe(s) and just taking a look.

In a deep well jet pump, it is possible that there is a leak in the motive pipe which takes water from the pump and runs it back down the well to the jet. That will reduce pumping efficiency a lot, but shouldn't lead to overheating of the pump motor itself (which you mentioned was a problem).

Submersible pumps have -- or should have -- a check valve at the pump. It is almost beyond rare for that to fail partly closed (although it isn't all that uncommon for it to fail open). Checking it, however, is not for the faint of heart, as it means pulling the entire drop pipe string and the pump.

If there is a problem with the well itself... has anything local happened which might have affected the groundwater? Construction in the vicinity? New foundation drains near the well? Yard drains? In any event, a competent well driller should be able to determine the static and operating water levels over time in the well, along with yield. That investigation should, however, not be undertaken until possible problems with the pump have been investigated.

WMno57

ColdMainer said:

When I'm not running water, the Pressure tank fills to where it should be. Somewhere around 50 PSI. But very slowly.

How long does it take to fill from 30 psi to 50 psi? Guessing you have a 30 - 50 PumpTrol. Run the water until the pump kicks on. Shut off the water and time it to when the pump shuts off.
The tank for your well is a little undersized. One of my homes has the same tank. 25 seconds for me on that one. The other home has the correct size tank. That one takes 60 seconds. An undersized or water logged tank will short cycle your well pump and shorten its life.
The smaller tank is probably for hot potable water or hot water heat. Probably unrelated to your well issue.

WMno57

Hard to tell from the photo. There may be two wells here. A deep submersible, and a shallow jet pump.

EBEBRATT-Ed

My guess would be the expansion tank is defective especially if it is waterlogged. If you change it be VERY cautious it will be very heavy when full of water. Best bet is to drill a small hole in the old tank and let the water out with the tank isolated of course.

Other issue is your water filter could be plugged as could the pressure switch connection.

# 1 check water filter
#2chech expansion tank with pump off and well tank drained check air pressure in expansion tank. Should be about 38 psi on the air side. Remove plastic cap on the bottom and use a tire pressure gauge. If you get any water out of that connection the expansion tank connection is bad.
#3 remove and check/clean pressure switch connection

ColdMainer

Jamie Hall said:

I agree on the second tank. It may also have been used for water hammer, or for hot water expansion. On the well, though... not so sure. What I read is that eventually the well pump can boost the pressure to your set 50 psi, but it does it very slowly. Further, that when it does finally get there the pressure switch opens as it is supposed to. This tells me that your surmise is quite correct: there is something going on which keeps your well and pump from keeping up, or even being close to keeping up. So... what kind of pump are we dealing with here, since the possible problems are different for different arrangements. Is this a shallow well jet pump (the pump is in your basement, most likely, and there is a single suction pipe from the pump going down the well with a foot valve)? Is it a deep well jet pump (the pump is, again, in your basement, but there are two pipes down the well, and the jet itself is at the bottom or near the bottom of the well)? Or is it a submersible pump (the pump itself is down in the well somewhere)? There are two problems which are more or less independent of the type of pump: first, the pump motor may be failing. This is rare, but does happen (a good submersible, for instance, has an expected life of more than 50 years). Related, the pump impellor or impellors may be damaged, usually from sand or silt in the well water. The second is far more serious: something may have changed in the well itself, or in the vicinity of the well, so that either standing water (when the pump is off) or the rate at which water can reenter the well (called recharge) has dropped. Either one will mean that your pump has to lift the water from a greater depth than previously, and will result in reduced flow (in the extreme, of course, the water level will drop to the pump intake or the pump itself, for a submersible, and result in no flow at all to speak of)(if a submersible is run dry, it will fail very quickly, by the way, so you don't want to do that). With jet pumps -- either deep well or shallow well -- there is a strainer at the bottom of the pipe in the well. This should never get clogged, but there is a chance it might if, somehow, something might have gotten dropped into the well. There is also a foot valve down there which could get clogged or hang up partly closed, though again that is rare. Either could be checked, however, by pulling the drop pipe(s) and just taking a look. In a deep well jet pump, it is possible that there is a leak in the motive pipe which takes water from the pump and runs it back down the well to the jet. That will reduce pumping efficiency a lot, but shouldn't lead to overheating of the pump motor itself (which you mentioned was a problem). Submersible pumps have -- or should have -- a check valve at the pump. It is almost beyond rare for that to fail partly closed (although it isn't all that uncommon for it to fail open). Checking it, however, is not for the faint of heart, as it means pulling the entire drop pipe string and the pump. If there is a problem with the well itself... has anything local happened which might have affected the groundwater? Construction in the vicinity? New foundation drains near the well? Yard drains? In any event, a competent well driller should be able to determine the static and operating water levels over time in the well, along with yield. That investigation should, however, not be undertaken until possible problems with the pump have been investigated.

Hey, yes, you know your stuff. I have a radon system. Here's another picture just to the side of original pic I posted. I have a grundfos pump (i believe its considered a circulator pump?)that pulls the water from the radon (barrel?) 

Also.. I had a new well pump put in the day I moved in 3 years ago. Just an FYI. Thanks for the helpful info. I really appreciate it. 
 

Illinoisfarmer

Well that's interesting...

An additional picture or two that show the entire setup would be helpful - but if I were guessing:
1) There is a well somewhere outside the basement that fills the 'Goulds' tank sitting on the floor. The pressure switch for that pump is the one we're seeing at the bottom center of the picture.

2) Water leaves the Goulds tank and goes through some sort of unseen filtration system (I'm assuming this because there's a closed valve that would feed the well water directly to the system, and an open valve marked 'close to bypass')

3) And this is purely a guess, since we can't see what's happening, when the system calls for water, the solenoid after the filter opens and a second pump, probably located off to the bottom right of the picture - the one you said was stopped on alarm, draws water from the Goulds tank, through the filter, and pressurizes the house system.

If that's the setup, it's pretty easy to isolate the problem. Before anything else, I'd make sure that the filter (in the blue housing, right center of the picture) is clean. I replace those elements pretty often, they get clogged with silt, rust and slime.

If the filter isn't the problem, I'd bypass that portion of the system - to make sure the main pump is keeping up. My guess is you'd close the two horizontal yellow handles and open the vertical one - but those labels on the valves probably explain what to do.

In any case, good luck. If you can get us some 'wider' pictures, we can probably tell more.

ColdMainer

WMno57 said:

When I'm not running water, the Pressure tank fills to where it should be. Somewhere around 50 PSI. But very slowly.

How long does it take to fill from 30 psi to 50 psi? Guessing you have a 30 - 50 PumpTrol. Run the water until the pump kicks on. Shut off the water and time it to when the pump shuts off. The tank for your well is a little undersized. One of my homes has the same tank. 25 seconds for me on that one. The other home has the correct size tank. That one takes 60 seconds. An undersized or water logged tank will short cycle your well pump and shorten its life. The smaller tank is probably for hot potable water or hot water heat. Probably unrelated to your well issue.

I'm gonna get home from work here shortly and I'll do that first thing. I'd say from the past when everything worked normal that it only took about 25 seconds or so to fill back to around 50+ psi.  Now it seems to climb to about 25 psi and set for quite a while before going to 50 psi. I know more once I get home.

ColdMainer

Intplm. said:

You are on the right track. The nipple connecting the pressure switch to the tank cross is probably plugged. If you decide to go to the trouble of repairing it yourself, I would change the nipple and the pressure switch. Be sure to have the pressure switch set at the pressure of your tank on the floor. As to the tank above. Your description tells me that this tank is water-logged and should also be replaced. I'm guessing that tank is installed because you have or have had a closed domestic water system that had or has a backflow preventer or check valve installed somewhere. I cant be sure due to the angle of the picture. That tank will need to be replaced too.

Yup. Any relation to Sherlock Holmes? You know your stuff. I've got a radon system that my pump pulls water from. I'm guessing that system takes water until the fill valve closes inside the barrel and then my grundfos pumps pulls it from there. 

Thanks for the reply. Sounds like a fairly easy/inexpensive fix.  That small tank sitting above my be the most expensive part. Just happy to have a game plan!

WMno57

https://www.radonaway.com/products/radon-in-water-removal-systems/clearadon-system/system-clearadon-3311-637

WMno57

https://awqinc.wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/RadonAway-ClearadonManual.pdf

mattmia2

A side note, that small expansion tank, I would try to refill it with a tire pump or compressor and see if it holds air before condemning it. It isn't unusual for the schrader that fills it to leak a little so if it isn't checked and topped off once or twice a year it may lose its charge. There needs to be no pressure on the water side when the pressure is set in both tanks.

Dave Carpentier

I recall watching a video of someone with a well-water radon tank, and their trouble was running out of water like that when using "too much" at the same time. Was something to do with the processing flow rate.
My memory is fuzzy on the solution, but it was something about installing a flow rate regulator and then trimming the rate to keep the radon tank working in its capability I think ?

Jamie Hall

That system appears to have a bypass built in. Does the problem of slow recharge happen when the system is bypassed? Or only when it is in operation? I presume that you have also checked its own pump for correct operation?

And... I presume that you do, in fact, have a radon problem requiring the use of the system?