Looking for help in south central kansas

Mkflyy

I have tried using the find a contractor feature and in our small area there is no one available. Would anyone know a contractor that could help me? 

Jamie Hall

Not really... but what are the questions or problems? Sometimes it is possible to help a really good plumber or HVAC person remotely, with accurate questions and accurate information.

pecmsg

I don’t see a primary loop?

Jamie Hall

pecmsg said:

I don’t see a primary loop?

Neither do I -- but that may not be what the problem is.

pedmec

There is no primary because i believe that is an electric on demand

PC7060

Installer was a big fan of shark bites. 

What problems are you experiencing?

pecmsg

pedmec said:

There is no primary because i believe that is an electric on demand

Boiler or water heater?

GroundUp

Mentioning what you need help with might be a good start

HVACNUT

I can see maybe no need for P/S piping here if the boiler(?) is only providing one zone of low water temperature, but why 2 circulators? Or 3 if there's one in the boiler(?)?

Mkflyy

It’s an on demand water heater. People have suggested primary and secondary loops I just don’t understand it I have done all of it myself. The latest problem is the water heater is not getting enough flow to kick on. It ran fine for a day but kept getting and e4 error code. Which is inlet temperature too high. Now it’s like neither of the circulation pumps are pushing fluid through the system. I just can’t seem to figure it out. 

Jamie Hall

On demand water heaters are not, frankly, a very good choice for a heating system. They like relatively cold inlet temperatures and are high head loss devices -- they can require a pretty good sized pump to work at all (there will typically be a head loss of 30 to 50 psi -- 60 to as much as 100 feet -- through a water heater), never mind getting the flow rates a system with as many loops as yours has.

OK. First thing to do, though, is to make sure you have no airlocks in the system. To do that you need to purge it with a really good flow of water. It looks as though you may have a way to hook up your domestic water to those manifolds. If so, hook up you water to one of them, open the flow control on just one loop, close the valves to the water heater, and run water to a drain through until you get no bubbles. Then close that loop and open the next one and repeat. And so on. Now make sure the system pressure is correct, and try running the system. That may help. May not, too.

The next thing is a question: what pumps are on there? It looks as though there is one from the water heater to the lower manifold, and another on the line from the upper manifold past the expansion tank and back to the water heater. What pumps are they? I assume that you have checked and they are both pumping in the same direction, and that that direction is into the water heater inlet. I know, silly question, but I have to ask.

I'm going to bet that the fundamental problem, though, is that the pumps simply can't generate enough flow with the head loss of that water heater -- and to even begin to get at that we need to know what the make and model of the pumps is.

Mkflyy

Grundfos UPS26-99FC Is the second added pump between the return manifold and water heater the other pump after expansion tank is a a grundfos up 15-42. Today I completely took the system apart to make sure there wasn’t an obstruction or something. I am using a 1/2 hp cast iron inline pump to fill and purge the system. I went through and did every loop individually after to starting with just the system loop then doing each individual loop. At this point I’m not opposed to adding a boiler but they are very expensive. I obviously don’t know what I am doing to install it either. Sounds like I would want a primary and secondary loop and I have looked at several diagrams and I can’t make sense of it and how I would add one to my system. So the last thing I want to do is buy a $2500 boiler and still not be able to get it to work. I also don’t have natural gas or LP only electric. That’s why I opted for this system. 

HVACNUT

Mkflyy said:

Grundfos UPS26-99FC Is the second added pump between the return manifold and water heater the other pump after expansion tank is a a grundfos up 15-42. Today I completely took the system apart to make sure there wasn’t an obstruction or something. I am using a 1/2 hp cast iron inline pump to fill and purge the system. I went through and did every loop individually after to starting with just the system loop then doing each individual loop. At this point I’m not opposed to adding a boiler but they are very expensive. I obviously don’t know what I am doing to install it either. Sounds like I would want a primary and secondary loop and I have looked at several diagrams and I can’t make sense of it and how I would add one to my system. So the last thing I want to do is buy a $2500 boiler and still not be able to get it to work. I also don’t have natural gas or LP only electric. That’s why I opted for this system. 

Regardless of what's wrong, it must be corrected. First is, it needs to be an electric boiler, not an on demand water heater. 

Then simply follow the boiler manufacturer piping instructions, and you'll be good to go.

GroundUp

This should have been piped in a primary/secondary fashion when you repiped everything as we discussed last year, but it's possible that it may work okay as-is. Sounds like you have an airlock, which is simple enough to mitigate.

Jamie Hall

Primary/Secondary piping might help, but it isn't a cure-all for problems. And you do have a heating device, even if it is the wrong kind. Run what you brung. Except the pump. The shutoff head on that pump you mention is only a bit above 30 feet -- perhaps 20 psi. Even running at its full speed I doubt that you are getting much more than half a gallon per minute out of it, and maybe less. Wrong pump for the application.

Mkflyy

Jamie say that I opt for a boiler this is the one I’m looking at. https://www.supplyhouse.com/Argo-AT164410C-54600-BTU-16kW-4-Element-Series-C-Electric-Boiler-w-Breakers would my current circulation pumps be adequate? I wish I understood primary and secondary piping better. I have these diagrams but I can’t make sense of it as it pertains to my application. https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/editor/5o/otmf6467zrdn.png

WMno57

I think the electric boiler you are looking at is too big and given your current manifolds and tube sizes you won't be able to utilize it's capacity. That meter spinner also needs it's own 100 amp breaker, and large gauge wires between the panel and the boiler. Argo does make smaller electric boilers.
I don't have the knowledge to size an electric boiler for you, but someone here must.
From McFlyy's February discussion:

Mkflyy said:

Building is 72x30 half of it has a finished insulated apartment the other half is not finished.

Mkflyy said:

8 loops 300 ft long

Really surprised there isn't someone here doing remote consulting. Seems like a good business for an older guy looking to wind down his career. If a pro is pushing mod-cons, because they can no longer get a cast iron boiler into a basement, maybe its time to work smarter, not harder.
I'll bet Erin would change the Find a Contractor Tool to show remote consulting Pros, if someone wanted to pursue that form of business.

GroundUp

It's as simple as looking at the flowmeters to dictate whether or not there is flow in every loop. If not, there is either an airlock or an electrical issue. Mitigate that first and see what the system does before you start cutting it apart again.

Your diagrams are very self explanatory and show exactly what would need to happen with your system. 26-99 on the primary/boiler loop pushing only through the tankless, while sucking out of and back into the secondary loop via closely spaced tees. The 15-42 can stay right where it is.

Mkflyy

Does this look correct for secondary and primary as you described 

GroundUp

Bingo. Now if you purged the system properly, you should have adequate heating for the life of the tankless.

Mkflyy

I am purging from the left side of the manifolds in through the bottom “return” and out through the supply or top manifold will that be adequite. Now my problem seems to be with the heater it’s self not kicking on anymore I think the flow sensor is messed up. 

GroundUp

It's pretty tough to purge the tankless without a valve between your closely spaced tees, which may very well be your issue here. Is there a vent on top of the unit? Or maybe a relief valve that you could crack to get air out? You should be able to hear if the 26-99 is moving water or not