Oil to Gas Conversion Options

Steamhead

David_16 said:

2 zones plus the indirect. 1 zone sits at 64 degrees 95% of the time though.

ODR would work well for you then.

David_16

Steamhead said:

2 zones plus the indirect. 1 zone sits at 64 degrees 95% of the time though.

ODR would work well for you then.

Trying to learn so I'm curious why you say an outdoor reset would work well because 1 have 2 zones, one lightly used.

Based on the phone conversation, I'm pretty sure the contractor tomorrow is also going to lean  CI+indirect so that's likely the way I'll go, either with him or the original ES2 guy.

No one has proposed modcon+indirect.

David_16

Another contractor came today recommending ES25+TX50. He's saying that size boiler is needed to have the indirect supply enough hot water. So confusing why contractors are telling me that the size of the boiler matters for making hot water when, clearly, many people here are saying and providing reasoning that it's not necessary.
Just to re-confirm, you are all saying that whether I do Burnham ES23, ES24 or ES25, there would be zero perceptible difference in my available DHW? I can run 2 showers at the same time with any? What if I'm using a tub at 7GPM, would there be any perceptible difference between any of the 3 boilers or between TX40 or TX50 indirect?

Hot_water_fan

@David_16 I can see zero reason to install anything larger than the ES23. You will be fine with DHW with that boiler. The bigger the indirect, the more hot water you'll have ready to go of course, but you're blowing past the point that you'll ever notice.

WMno57

As @pecmsg said, that leak could be coming from the near boiler piping, not a crack in the boiler itself. The boiler is made up of sections which are connected top and bottom with gaskets or push nipples. Your leak seems to be coming from above that.
One thing you could do is shut off the water to the boiler. Then over time, see how much the pressure drops. I don't think that is a crack, and it may not even be an active leak.

David_16

WMno57 said:

As @pecmsg said, that leak could be coming from the near boiler piping, not a crack in the boiler itself. The boiler is made up of sections which are connected top and bottom with gaskets or push nipples. Your leak seems to be coming from above that.
One thing you could do is shut off the water to the boiler. Then over time, see how much the pressure drops. I don't think that is a crack, and it may not even be an active leak.

Interesting. I don't see anything leaking above and they guy who took the jacket off said there was some water in the housing. Nothing at all leading onto the floor though.

Boiler is probably near EOL and the indirect has to be near EOL (19 years) and I'm going to save money (at today's oil prices) going to gas, plus get rid of the tank/noise/etc. Probably still will have to proceed with this project.

David_16

Hot_water_fan said:

@David_16 I can see zero reason to install anything larger than the ES23. You will be fine with DHW with that boiler. The bigger the indirect, the more hot water you'll have ready to go of course, but you're blowing past the point that you'll ever notice.

And the 2nd part of this then is if I did ES23 or 4, is there any perceptible difference at all going with a 40 or 50 gallon tank. Where does that come in? Is it worth the difference in cost in tanks to have a 50 gallon tank?

This contractor I just talked to said I'll get about 109 gallons per hour with ES24. I'm not sure what that equates to in real world and I don't understand what these numbers mean.
https://www.dhtnet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/TX-Series-Ratings-7.2020.pdf

I apologize if it seems like I'm questioning the great advice here, but I'm more concerned because I have an oversized boiler now and a 40 gallon tank and I do run out of hot water during maybe a 10 minute shower in the winter. No mixing valve today, maybe not on priority and who knows what else could be wrong, but I'd like to know have more hot water than I do today.

I'm definitely going with a CI+indirect so that decision has been made at least. You would still recommend ES23+TX40?

And finally, do I likely want the indirect on priority or is that debatable?

WMno57

Agree you should switch to gas. One way to do that is to have a gas burner installed in your existing boiler. Steamhead mentioned this here:
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1774464/#Comment_1774464
Your current boiler is just a big iron box with fire on one side and water on the other. The iron box doesn't wear out, but the stuff attached to the box like the oil burner can fail.
Really old WM boilers had sections joined with push nipples. Those last forever. Newer WM boilers join the sections with gaskets or o-rings. Gaskets are not as good as push nipples, but that doesn't mean all gaskets wear out after xx number of years either. Not sure where your boiler falls in this timeline. I'm not convinced your boiler has a fatal active leak. The rust trail seems to be coming from above and to the left of the section joint.
A knowledgeable tech standing in front of your boiler who is not trying to sell you a new boiler should be able to figure out if the rust trail is from a section joint leak, or near boiler piping leak.
Unfortunately Steamhead is in Baltimore, and you are in NYC.

Hot_water_fan

I apologize if it seems like I'm questioning the great advice here, but I'm more concerned because I have an oversized boiler now and a 40 gallon tank and I do run out of hot water during maybe a 10 minute shower in the winter. No mixing valve today, maybe not on priority and who knows what else could be wrong, but I'd like to know have more hot water than I do today.

This isn’t due to size. Other things can go wrong with indirects - heat exchangers are the first thing to look at. 

A 40 gallon indirect has about that much water stored and ready to go - if it’s held at 140, even more “effective” gallons ready plus a 60kbtu output boiler can make 1GPM. 

Probably 95-99% of Americans don’t have indirects and get by just fine with much lower powered tanks. The average 40G gas tank is about 80 gallons FHR, average electric is in the 50s FHR. You’ll be triple digits! 

David_16

Hot_water_fan said:

This isn’t due to size. Other things can go wrong with indirects - heat exchangers are the first thing to look at. 

A 40 gallon indirect has about that much water stored and ready to go - if it’s held at 140, even more “effective” gallons ready plus a 60kbtu output boiler can make 1GPM. 

Probably 95-99% of Americans don’t have indirects and get by just fine with much lower powered tanks. The average 40G gas tank is about 80 gallons FHR, average electric is in the 50s FHR. You’ll be triple digits! 

Again, I really appreciate the continued responses because I am learning. In the winter now, I could be taking a shower and a few minutes in I have to keep adjusting the temp and eventually maybe after 10 minutes get to max and it's not super hot. That actually doesn't happen in the warmer 6 months of the year. If I'm understanding this right, if an indirect really has 40 gallons of 140 degree water in there already waiting, shouldn't I get 20 minutes of max hot shower water, even if the boiler was off? And since the boiler is not off, while it's using that first 40 gallons, it's replacing that with new hot water so I should get much longer amount of max hot water than just 20 minutes?

How much does a mixing valve help as I don't have one today?

And do you suggest putting the indirect on priority? Seems like that makes sense to me, we can almost always due without heating the house for a few minutes here and there when someone is showering.

WMno57 said:

Agree you should switch to gas. One way to do that is to have a gas burner installed in your existing boiler. Steamhead mentioned this here:
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1774464/#Comment_1774464

I'm not sure if I noticed or understood that option, but thanks for mentioning that again. Presume I've still got to have my chimney lined and my 19 year old indirect replaced and then I've got this gas burner with an old boiler and old circulators/valves/etc that may or may not be on its way out.

Hot_water_fan

And do you suggest putting the indirect on priority? Seems like that makes sense to me, we can almost always due without heating the house for a few minutes here and there when someone is showering.

This is the default in most installations. That's what will be installed unless you tell them otherwise.

Again, I really appreciate the continued responses because I am learning. In the winter now, I could be taking a shower and a few minutes in I have to keep adjusting the temp and eventually maybe after 10 minutes get to max and it's not super hot. That actually doesn't happen in the warmer 6 months of the year. If I'm understanding this right, if an indirect really has 40 gallons of 140 degree water in there already waiting, shouldn't I get 20 minutes of max hot shower water, even if the boiler was off? And since the boiler is not off, while it's using that first 40 gallons, it's replacing that with new hot water so I should get much longer amount of max hot water than just 20 minutes?

How much does a mixing valve help as I don't have one today?

You're right: unless you're using 40G of hot water per shower, you shouldn't have a problem. You might have a faulty thermostat?

I used 140 as an example. Your temp might be lower based on the settings. If it was 140, you'd feel it! A mixing valve keeps you safe and lets you use higher temperatures to increase capacity. The math is simple, you need less hot water when the temp is higher.

David_16

Hot_water_fan said:

And do you suggest putting the indirect on priority? Seems like that makes sense to me, we can almost always due without heating the house for a few minutes here and there when someone is showering.

This is the default in most installations. That's what will be installed unless you tell them otherwise.

Again, I really appreciate the continued responses because I am learning. In the winter now, I could be taking a shower and a few minutes in I have to keep adjusting the temp and eventually maybe after 10 minutes get to max and it's not super hot. That actually doesn't happen in the warmer 6 months of the year. If I'm understanding this right, if an indirect really has 40 gallons of 140 degree water in there already waiting, shouldn't I get 20 minutes of max hot shower water, even if the boiler was off? And since the boiler is not off, while it's using that first 40 gallons, it's replacing that with new hot water so I should get much longer amount of max hot water than just 20 minutes?

How much does a mixing valve help as I don't have one today?

You're right: unless you're using 40G of hot water per shower, you shouldn't have a problem. You might have a faulty thermostat?

I used 140 as an example. Your temp might be lower based on the settings. If it was 140, you'd feel it! A mixing valve keeps you safe and lets you use higher temperatures to increase capacity. The math is simple, you need less hot water when the temp is higher.

Oh, i definitely feel literally burning hot water coming out of the kitchen sink, it's definitely not 100 degree water coming out the tap. I guess there's really no point to figure out why it doesn't work ideally today.

So lastly, there's really going to be little perceptible difference between a 40G and 50G indirect paired with either the ES23 or ES24? It would be a waste to go with the 50G or would there be any reason?

And does any of this change if I want to fill up an 80 gallon bathtub at 6-7GPM occasionally? Should an ES23 and 40G indirect still could do that as a continuous flow or no?

Steamhead

You'd need bigger tanks for a tub that size. Check with the indirect manufacturer and see what they recommend.

David_16

Steamhead said:

You'd need bigger tanks for a tub that size. Check with the indirect manufacturer and see what they recommend.

I guess I'll ask the contractor to reach out to them.

Does oversizing an indirect have the same negatives as oversizing the boiler (other than initial hardware costs)?

I don't understand the ratings here, but looks like the TX-50 wouldn't even work correctly with the ES23 and even with ES24 at 89K, it doesn't look like there's that much difference in the ratings between the TX-40 and TX-50. It just looks like it gets me an extra 10 gallons initially, but the continuous numbers are the same. If that's going to make a real difference and not cost me gas, the price difference isn't much so maybe it's worth it?
https://www.dhtnet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/TX-Series-Ratings-7.2020.pdf

Hot_water_fan

Does oversizing an indirect have the same negatives as oversizing the boiler (other than initial hardware costs)?

I don't understand the ratings here, but looks like the TX-50 wouldn't even work correctly with the ES23 and even with ES24 at 89K, it doesn't look like there's that much difference in the ratings between the TX-40 and TX-50. It just looks like it gets me an extra 10 gallons initially, but the continuous numbers are the same. If that's going to make a real difference and not cost me gas, the price difference isn't much so maybe it's worth it?

Not much downside to a larger indirect besides upfront costs. You have slightly higher standby losses, but nothing you'll notice.

The ES23 will work with both sizes. The 50G gets you 10G more to start but the continuous rating is just the boiler output divided by Delta T * 8.34.

David_16

Hot_water_fan said:

Does oversizing an indirect have the same negatives as oversizing the boiler (other than initial hardware costs)?

I don't understand the ratings here, but looks like the TX-50 wouldn't even work correctly with the ES23 and even with ES24 at 89K, it doesn't look like there's that much difference in the ratings between the TX-40 and TX-50. It just looks like it gets me an extra 10 gallons initially, but the continuous numbers are the same. If that's going to make a real difference and not cost me gas, the price difference isn't much so maybe it's worth it?

Not much downside to a larger indirect besides upfront costs. You have slightly higher standby losses, but nothing you'll notice.

The ES23 will work with both sizes. The 50G gets you 10G more to start but the continuous rating is just the boiler output divided by Delta T * 8.34.

Maybe that's the way to go then to be safe, that's actually what the contractor was suggesting.

If I've got 140 degree water in the tank and input water is 40 degrees, it takes 2/3 indirect water to give me 105 degrees water to the tub so a 50 gallon indirect at 140 could fill 75 gallons, right?

David_16

Before I make a final decision on CI+indirect, I did find a local Energy Kinetics dealer and have them coming over tomorrow. I suspect the price difference might be too much, but we'll see.

JohnHachmann

Hello David,

Thank you for thinking of Energy Kinetics and for contacting our office today. Just to address some of the questions in this thread, if you were using up to 800 gallons per year with an indirect tank on a cast-iron boiler, your heat loss is conservatively around 35,000 BTU/hr. Since you have a tank, we always recommend that you keep a tank, rather than switching to a "combi" style boiler.

In the BNL study that was referenced, it notes that low "Idle Loss" is a primary factor in operating at high-efficiency year ‘round. Energy Kinetics equipment has a thermal purge feature that virtually eliminates idle losses and the penalty of oversizing heating equipment. With an Energy Kinetics boiler, you should expect to achieve great savings throughout the year!

If you’re looking at modulating condensing equipment, our condensing boilers not only feature a thermal purge for heating and hot water but combine a specially oversized Plate Heat Exchanger (P.H.E.) to condense through the entire hot water cycle, which is quite unique. This increases efficiency and also helps to keep the the boiler cleaner by flushing out the fire tubes with much more condensate. Our "Smart Boost Cycle" allows for a very aggressive outdoor reset curve... the boiler water temperature will automatically increase to provide quick response on days when additional BTU's are required.

I look forward to helping you decide on the appropriate system for "Your Home" and to achieve many years of happy heating ahead!

If you would like to discuss the benefits of using an Energy Kinetics boiler you can e-mail me directly at jhachmann@energykinetics.com or call my cell at 516-459-1701.

Looking forward to speaking with you and perhaps stopping by your home during the installation of a Yellow Boiler!

Happy Holidays!

John Hachmann
Energy Kinetics, Inc.
Territory Manager, Long Island, NYC and Westchester County

David_16

@JohnHachmann Appreciate your time! I had an EK dealer here today, but the problem is that he was so much more for CI+Indirect than other people I've had in and then the EK was even more than that, there's just no way to justify it. If his starting point for the CI+Indirect was the same as other quotes I have, maybe there's room for a discussion.
I was also referred to another EK dealer, but I already have a quote for a CI+Indirect from them and that's about the same as today's EK dealer, so no better there.

@Hot_water_fan @Steamhead @LRCCBJ
I'm highly likely going to wind up doing a Burnham ES2+TX50 indirect. Still deciding on ES23 vs ES24. I know you all are screaming 3, but almost everyone I've had in is starting with a 5, but says a 4 should be ok.

I did another quick calculation today using this site https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/replacing-a-furnace-or-boiler
800 Gallons * 138700 * .86 = 95425600
Degree Days
12/1/2020 - 11/30/2021
65 4652 total
60 3560 total
95425600/4652/24 = 855
95425600/3560/24 = 1117
Design temp = 9
(65-9) * 855 = 47880
(60-9) * 1117 = 56967
So I guess, let's split it and say 50K.
It then says to oversize by 1.4x so that's 70K.

I don't really know for sure that I used 800 gallons that year, but that was a colder winter, so I actually think the 800 guess might be on the lower end, but it's probably not too far off.

ES23 is 59K so you can see what I'm a little worried about the ES23.

That's assuming I even did the calculations correctly.

Any further comments? I really do appreciate all of the time everyone took to post here.

KC_Jones

First, your worry about sizing because of what the quotes say. Well, the quotes are from people who are choosing to do their job incorrectly, for me I put very little faith in those people.

To refine this a bit more, how many feet of finned baseboard do you have? That dictates the maximum output of the system, which could give you a reference for how oversized the contractors are planning on going.

And final reminder, anyone replacing should do a manual J heatloss on the house, that is the only way to properly size.

Hot_water_fan

@KC_Jones I like the fuel usage for existing homes because there’s less guessing involved. You let the meter do the work. If a boiler runs for 20/24 hours on the coldest day, who cares what the manual J says? 

@David_16 the baseboard linear feet are what?  The 40% oversize is just a plug. And some portion of that oil is DHW, so gets removed. 

David_16

@KC_Jones @Hot_water_fan
I get what you are saying about people not doing their job, but I literally had 6 or 7 people here. I do live in an area where all of the houses are virtually the same (at least when they were built). Sure, I could eventually find someone who is going to do a proper heat loss calc, but then he'll be enough more $s for the system, that I'd never do it at that difference. For whatever it's worth, I do have local reviews from the 2 lower priced contractors who would do ES2+TX50 and I'm comfortable they would do a good install. I've got quotes from people who are 40% more for the same thing.

Baseboard: About 98 feet upstairs zone and 43 feet downstairs zone.

pedmec

Using slantfin BTU output at 180 degree water your getting 580 BTU's per foot which comes out to 81,780. This is the max output. Whether you need all that is a different question because some contractors in the early days just went wall to wall. A manual j? pfft. A manual j calculation is really something that has become normal due to the greening of the country but in no way was happening 20-25 years ago for residential installs. Only the serious contractors would put the work in. i would do a manual j now.

This is where a mod/con will excel as you might not get down to condensing temperatures but you will load match the system without additional controls to maintain a minimum temperature. excessive baseboard will help get the supply temperatures down to help the efficiency of the boiler. Some condensing boilers also can be rate limited to act as a smaller boiler if the boiler is greatly oversize and then the rate limit is lifted on hot water demand. just food for thought

Hot_water_fan

Is it 600 or 800 gallons burned?

Most boilers are vastly oversized. It is not surprising to hear that 7 installers have spent their entire career screwing sizing up. There is no incentive for them to get it right - they don’t pay the bills and everyone does it. 

David_16

Hot_water_fan said:

Is it 600 or 800 gallons burned?

Most boilers are vastly oversized. It is not surprising to hear that 7 installers have spent their entire career screwing sizing up. There is no incentive for them to get it right - they don’t pay the bills and everyone does it. 

For the time period I chose just above, it had to be around 800 gallons, probably more. No way a whole colder winter was 600. I don't have great records to know exactly though.

Hot_water_fan

Yeah you need good records for this. It’s easier for gas. If you have a max baseboard output of 81kbtu, no need to install anything larger then the 24. 

David_16

Hot_water_fan said:

Yeah you need good records for this. It’s easier for gas. If you have a max baseboard output of 81kbtu, no need to install anything larger then the 24. 

It's a great question for all the people proposing the es25 or x205 since the baseboard feet is a hard physical limit to BTU.  

Based on my my very rough oil calculation I'm definitely concerned about pulling the trigger on es23.  I don't always get oil from the same source or use the same credit card so it's not easy. I suppose I could call the 2 oil companies I used and ask them for delivery records for past 2 years.

ethicalpaul

Wait, you are switching from oil to gas and you still want to run your boiler year around just to heat a few gallons of water per day for your dishwasher and shower? I will never understand that.

worldclasshvac

ethicalpaul said

Wait, you are switching from oil to gas and you still want to run your boiler year around just to heat a few gallons of water per day for your dishwasher and shower? I will never understand that.

For the HO its still cheaper.  Add in the de-scaling/annual service needed with a combi and a few minutes of boiler operation to keep heated water is cheaper.  Most of us are in heat mode half the year anyway

Hot_water_fan

@ethicalpaul meant stand-alone heaters? Not just combis

David_16

Hot_water_fan said:

Yeah you need good records for this. It’s easier for gas. If you have a max baseboard output of 81kbtu, no need to install anything larger then the 24. 

I got a whole winter delivery schedule for 10/3/22 through 4/17/23 from the oil company. Re-ran the numbers and the 45K estimate from my page 1 calculation still holds. Does the fact that was a warm winter matter any or that's accounted for with the degree days calculation?

jesmed1

David_16 said:

Hot_water_fan said:

Yeah you need good records for this. It’s easier for gas. If you have a max baseboard output of 81kbtu, no need to install anything larger then the 24. 

I got a whole winter delivery schedule for 10/3/22 through 4/17/23 from the oil company. Re-ran the numbers and the 45K estimate from my page 1 calculation still holds. Does the fact that was a warm winter matter any or that's accounted for with the degree days calculation?

That's accounted for in the degree-days data. You're good to go.

Just remember that the gallons delivered does not equal the gallons consumed unless the beginning and ending oil levels in the tank are the same. For example, if your tank was 1/2 full before your first delivery, and 3/4 full after your last heating day of the season, you ended up storing 1/4 tank's worth of delivered oil instead of burning it. So that can introduce some error into the calculation.

Also, it sounds like some of that oil may have been used for DHW heating. So you may want to do some rough +/- error calculations to see how far either one of those factors might throw your heat loss calc off. But if some of the oil was in fact used for DHW, that could make up for any uncertainty in beginning/ending tank levels and land you right where you started, around 45,000 BTU/hr.

Hot_water_fan

You’re good to go, the ES23 will be fine 

David_16

Hot_water_fan said:

You’re good to go, the ES23 will be fine 

Seems that way.
ES23 with DHT TX-50 going to be an issue though?
https://www.dhtnet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/TX-Series-Ratings-7.2020.pdf
Minimum input capacity listed is 80,000 for the TX-50. TX-40 only requires 60,000 minimum. I was planning on going with the TX-50.

Hot_water_fan

Seems that way.
ES23 with DHT TX-50 going to be an issue though?
https://www.dhtnet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/TX-Series-Ratings-7.2020.pdf
Minimum input capacity listed is 80,000 for the TX-50. TX-40 only requires 60,000 minimum. I was planning on going with the TX-50.

You can use any size boiler. 

David_16

Hot_water_fan said

You can use any size boiler. 

@Hot_water_fan

Wow, late entry into the mix.  Last company that I had coming was first to lead with a modcon+indirect. 

He's proposing Weil-Mclain Eco Tec 150-H plus Weil-Mclain indirect. 

Price is very competitive since it will vent out the side of the house so no chimney liner needed, plus way bigger rebates from the gas company and maybe a federal tax credit.

Yes, I know he's way oversized but he's pretty adamant about the size.  I do have good local reviews of this company as well.

That being said, how is the WM Eco Tec product?  Does oversizing a modcon matter as much other than the initial hardware cost?  Even though lot of people were telling me it won't condense all the time, is a modcon still a sensible option for baseboard heating in the NY climate and should it still save me gas over a 85% CI?

Hot_water_fan

Does oversizing a modcon matter as much other than the initial hardware cost?  Even though lot of people were telling me it won't condense all the time, is a modcon still a sensible option for baseboard heating in the NY climate and should it still save me gas over a 85% CI?

It matters less with the turndown, but 150 is too big. That’s just stupid. 80kbtu is best. 

Should save you a decent %. Most of the time it should condense with no issues. Very little of the winter is spent at the design temps. 

David_16

Hot_water_fan said:

Does oversizing a modcon matter as much other than the initial hardware cost?  Even though lot of people were telling me it won't condense all the time, is a modcon still a sensible option for baseboard heating in the NY climate and should it still save me gas over a 85% CI?

It matters less with the turndown, but 150 is too big. That’s just stupid. 80kbtu is best. 

Should save you a decent %. Most of the time it should condense with no issues. Very little of the winter is spent at the design temps. 

He was very adamant, I'll discuss this further with him.

How is the WM Eco Tec product?  How's it compare to say, Peerless purefire or Burnham Alpine?

I'll probably have more regular maintenance with the modcon and maybe it won't last quite as long, right?  But, with this option priced even less than CI+indirect, this would make a lot of sense?

I was surprised to wind up with this option in my budget.

David_16

@pedmec

Looks like I'm going to wind up with exactly your suggestion of modcon+indirect.  I like the final contractor's proposal. He was the first one with that combo.  The company has been around for like 80 years.

So is the Weil McLain Eco Tec a quality modcon.  How's is it compared to other popular modcons?  I do know it's only been around 3 years.  I don't see any online discussion or comparison to other similar boilers.

@Hot_water_fan
As far as sizing, the contractor is suggesting the 150-H (139K DOE) saying that he's seen other similar houses go smaller and not be able to get over 65 in the house on the coldest days. Said something like if you add up the baseboard feet and multiply by 575, it's 81K and then you still need 40K or so for the indirect so a smaller boiler isn't good.  But, I'm thinking you don't really add it like that. The most the baseboard could take is 81K, if I need to make hot water, the boiler will do that for a for a few minutes without heating the house and then go back to heating the house when the water is satisfied.  Or if I had 139K BTU, the boiler could be cranking out full heat to the house and making hot water at the same time even on the coldest day. I guess that's what the contractor is trying to say, but please explain to me how that doesn't make sense.  On top of this all, I know we already know I don't even need 80K to heat the house based on the oil use calculation that I did.

Once again, I really do appreciate this education. I'm trying to make the most informed choice that I can and put the right hardware in my house.

David_16

@Hot_water_fan Well, I'm officially proceeding with the Weil-McLain 110-H + Weil-McLain Aqua Plus Series 2 45 gallon indirect. The contractor is making me sign to accept liability if boiler is under sized.

You guys are all sure 90-100K output (depending on efficiency it's running at) is more than sufficient to heat 2000 square foot house with 141 feet of baseboard and power the indirect to deliver enough hot water for like 2 showers at once or 1 shower running for a long time?