Where to bleed air from boiler?

Forumjp59

Before I call the contractor, I just opened the actual owners manual that came with the unit and it's different than the one we've been reviewing in this thread. Please see the attached, and let me know if the original recommendations still hold true. Thanks! 

hot_rod

This manual, page 29 or 30. I don't think you need the return valve, LTV, if you have just one low mass radiant zone, so page 29 is the piping recommended. Although I would have the check downstream of the boiler pump, or just use the circulator with the IFC check in the pump body.

It does seem odd that you need to run 3- 80W= 240W circulators to move that 70K boiler flow

KC_Jones

That is the wrong manual.

That manual is for the commercial boiler and does not apply. I double checked the model number and that is indeed the wrong manual.

I was suspicious because it says in that picture the flow requirements for the boiler are 60 or 90 GPM.

EdTheHeaterMan

You can be tactful in writing your request. With writing, the person receiving the information can't cut you off in the middle of a thought. You can ask the installing company owner/manager if there might be a different piping design that will work better with your situation. Admit that you are no expert, you are just living with this noise. Could the contractor possibly get a manufacturer's representative to look at the problem? You are afraid that this thing might blow up and certainly don't want that to happen. If a catastrophic failure happens The contractors insurance company would need to get involved and that never is good for the insurance customer. The company will increase the rates for coverage and possibly drop the client. You certainly wouldn't want that to happen.

There are at least 4 different diagrams in the instruction manual and all of them except one has a circulator pump on the return pipe The one that does not have the circulator on the return pipe has a section of pipe missing that is most definitely included in your system. Is there a reason that your installer decided to include the section of pipe missing from the diagram and also decide to exclude the pump that is on all the other diagrams?

As I stated earlier, I am no expert, but I am living with this noise and need to have this problem taken care of, as I’m sure you want that also. Please take care of this issue as soon as you can. Thank you in advance for your resolution of this problem.


Send your letter Certified Mail so you have a record that they received it. Certified letters usually get the attention of the important people at the company. That is because the person who opens the mail knows about it and may ask, "What was that letter all about?"

Include these two diagrams from the I/O manual and the picture of the piping you have "as built"

Forumjp59

@EdTheHeaterMan Thank you so much! You guys have all truly gone above and beyond to help me understand this system, and process. It means a lot! 

My other contractor just came by and agreed that it needs to be re-piped because it is not flowing properly etc. He apologized for not adding that to the notes when he first serviced it.

At this point I've left a nice but stern voice-mail for the contractor that installed the system. We'll see how it goes! 

KC_Jones

@Forumjp59 please keep us updated on how things go. I'm hoping you have a positive result here.

The incorrect manual they left is a head scratcher for me, I mean, how did they even get it, and why bring it to your house?

hot_rod

Download the correct manual hear. It might be good to have this onsite.
The I&O "english" manual is what you want.
There are residential and commercial versions of that Solution boiler. Sometimes the manual covers both.

https://www.lochinvar.com/products/residential-boilers/solution-heating-boiler/

Forumjp59

@KC_Jones I've been wondering that as well! The original installer is coming by today between 3p to 6p. I've also called the home inspector who inspected the house/system  back in April And he is sending an email to the warranty company to see if they will cover any of this if we do have to pay for somebody to do it right. 

Forumjp59

@hot_rod I did already print out the PDFs we discussed, and will print the whole manual as well. Thanks! 

Forumjp59

The gentlemen/owner of the company came by and spent quite a bit of time analyzing the system and said everything looks great, but did find that the expansion tank is not working, so we're gonna start with replacing that and see what happens. 

EdTheHeaterMan

A new expansion tank was not included in the price of the new boiler? I don't think that I know anybody that installs boilers professionally that does not include the expansion tank, along with many other auxillary parts like circulators, fill valves, thermostats, copper and iron pipes and even some PEX tubing from time to time.

And the contractor is not going to address the circulator issue? I'm thinking it might be time to call the manufacturer yourself and say that you have lost confidence in the contractor and would like to know if there is a different contractor that better understands how the product works, in order to solve the banging and surging that you are hearing (make sure to tell them that you think their heater sounds like it is going to "blow up" for best response from them).

EdTheHeaterMan

Where are you located? You may want to contact the manufacturers representative for your area The rep for my area is
B.J. Terroni Co., Inc.
3190 Tucker Road
Bensalem, Pennsylvania 19020
(215) 639-3600


You can look up the rep in your area here https://www.lochinvar.com/locator

fill in zip code,
Select Factory Rep
Select Residential Boilers

Forumjp59

@EdTheHeaterMan Thank you. There a couple companies on that list in my area. I'm in Eagle, CO. The problem is paying out of pocket for this if we don't have to. Not sure what route to take there. The current contractor is not charging us and being very nice and respectful about everything. The home inspector also said he will send out one of his service techs on his dime.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@Forumjp59 & @hot_rod

The manual I posted above on 11/21 is the right manual for the boiler. The model # on the boiler nameplate in your picture and the model # in the manual I posted match.

THERE is 1 good reason this boiler needs 3 pumps. The water content of this boiler is only .91gallons.

If you did not have the factor pump this thing would probably burn the HX up in no time

As far a why the boiler needs 3 circulators I don't know but that is the way they designed it.

The manifold on the side of the boiler is basically a "low loss header'. The pump mounted on the boiler that is factory installed pumps water through the hx and through the boiler manifold...that is all it does.

The circ mounted above the boiler is a Grundfoss that is like an injection pump. It is only going to pump water through the boiler manifold through the two risers that connect to the house loop which has no circ at this time.

You will never get much heat out of this the way it is piped now.

EdTheHeaterMan

Forumjp59 said:

@EdTheHeaterMan Thank you. There a couple companies on that list in my area. I'm in Eagle, CO. The problem is paying out of pocket for this if we don't have to. Not sure what route to take there. The current contractor is not charging us and being very nice and respectful about everything. The home inspector also said he will send out one of his service techs on his dime.

The Manufacturers Rep or Factory Rep will not charge you, They will contact the installer and review the problem with them...

If you tell the contractor to put another circulator on, that will go in one ear and out the other. When the Manuf. Rep tells the contractor to put in another circulator, The contractor will do it.

Select Factory Rep
Select Residential Boilers

Forumjp59

@EdTheHeaterMan That is good to know. I will begin that process on Monday. Thanks for the insight! 

pecmsg

Forumjp59 said:

@KC_Jones I've been wondering that as well! The original installer is coming by today between 3p to 6p. I've also called the home inspector who inspected the house/system  back in April And he is sending an email to the warranty company to see if they will cover any of this if we do have to pay for somebody to do it right. 

Forget the home inspection. They can’t do squat! Maybe the original installer but he’ll sware on a stack of bibles he does it like that all the time. 

Bottom line a qualified contractor on site to advise!

hot_rod

Shamrock Sales in Denver is the rep, good people. They could direct you to a qualified contractor.

Forumjp59

Update:

@EdTheHeaterMan So the contractor changed the expansion tank today and the pressure is now holding during and in between cycles, but he said he had to drain/purge the system 5 times to get clear water and that there may be oxygen entering the system from behind the walls somewhere and then running to the baseboards...

EdTheHeaterMan

OUCH. that can be a problem if someone used NON Barrier PEX in your system. That means that you will always have the oxygen problem until that PEX can be replaced with the Oxygen Barrier PEX. But that does not solve the incorrect piping or missing circulator problem.

Call the Factory Rep.

Forumjp59

@EdTheHeaterMan So is there no solution here besides a six figure project of rebuilding the entire system and pipes behind the walls? As we know, I'm pretty uneducated here but could use a cut and dry answer as to how to screwed we might be. 

Is a second opinion worth it? Or does that fluid tell all? 

EdTheHeaterMan

Were there PEX pipes installed behind walls during the boiler job?

EdTheHeaterMan

But that does not solve the incorrect piping or missing circulator problem.

Call the Factory Rep.

Forumjp59

@EdTheHeaterMan No they just replaced the boiler. And the original boiler lasted 30 years. 

Forumjp59

@EdTheHeaterMan I called the rep today and left a voice mail. 

2 questions:
1. Should we have heat but it will just be very inefficient and the boilers life will be reduced? 

2. Could this fluid/oxygen have been introduced into the system in the past year because of the incorrect piping, and missing circulator pump? Could it take 5 flushes to get clear fluid from just 1 year of this being installed wrong? 

EdTheHeaterMan

OK then you probably don't have PEX tubing that is a problem ... the Oxygen that may be entering may be from the incorrect piping design

I say call the factory Rep and tell them your story. Since @hot_rod chimed in I would drop Bob Rohr's name to add credibility to your story.
This contractor is clearly not going to help you without a mandate from the factory rep.

It's like calling your bosses boss to get the changes you need when your boss does not pay attention to you. The next step after this is the lawyer route, and no one wins when that happens. See if the folks at Sharmock Sales can get this guy to correct the problem.

hot_rod

With good clean water in the system, you can add hydronic conditioners to protect the system. They need to be tested every few years, maybe a shot of boost added.
Fernox, Rhomar, Sentinel all have squirt cans that you can inject the conditioner.

Conditioners will balance ph, protect the clean pipes, and scavenge some O2 that may get in.

EdTheHeaterMan

Forumjp59 said:

@EdTheHeaterMan I called the rep today and left a voice mail. 

2 questions:
1. Should we have heat but it will just be very inefficient and the boilers life will be reduced? 

2. Could this fluid/oxygen have been introduced into the system in the past year because of the incorrect piping, and missing circulator pump? Could it take 5 flushes to get clear fluid from just 1 year of this being installed wrong? 

Yes. to solve the problem, I'm sure that they have purged, and vented, and added all kinds of water to get the problem solved. That is where the oxygen is coming from. all the service calls that did not solve the incorrect piping.

Todays FLUSH just added more oxygen into the system to start the muddying problem all over.

Forumjp59

@EdTheHeaterMan I just spoke with him on the phone more about the situation and he kept stating that yes there is an oxygen problem, but it's coming from old PEX on the lower level and upper level because the old style of piping did not have oxygen barriers. 

He then mentioned that he did some digging to understand the piping and in the crawl space he found "Heatpex" piping which has an oxygen barrier. This would check out as the upper and lower level are original baseboards, and the in floor radiant is new within the last 10 years or so. 

So his current reasoning for the oxygen in the system is that the old style of tubing does not have an Oxygen barrier. He also said that the old system lasted so long with this issue because it was cast iron. 

He suggested installing the filter system that I would manage each month and said this would prolong the life of the system. 

EdTheHeaterMan

Sounds reasonable. but there is still the incorrect piping/circulator missing issue. Is he even going to address that?

Your banging could be the mud in the system from the extra oxygen from the wrong PEX is building up on an air separator or other part. I have discovered a clogged Spirovent in a system that had a noise problem. I posted the problem here back in 2016. Never resolved the issue until a new owner moved in the home 4 years ago and contracted us to flush the boilers and Heatway Onyx tubing. It was a three day job, That is when I opened the Spirovent that was blocking the flow of heat from the supply of one of the two boilers. What a surprise that was.

I agree with the filter, but you still need that circulator.

Forumjp59

@EdTheHeaterMan Okay, thank you. At this point, no he is not going to address the incorrect piping/missing circulator issue. When I brought it up and showed him the diagram he explained to me how this system was installed and achieves the same goal, and that's as far as it went. For now I'll be waiting for the rep to call me back and see where it goes. I may take the home inspector up on his offer to pay for a 2nd opinion, and get that opinion in writing. Hopefully his opinion matches the missing circulator/incorrect piping issue! 

Forumjp59

@EdTheHeaterMan So I was able to have a factory rep from Shamrock come out today and explained the situation to him,  showed him the diagrams you guys have drawn up, as well as the owners manual specifically page 29. He took everything we have into consideration while inspecting the system and said everything looked great and he was okay with how it was installed. He really didn't have an answer as to how oxygen would be getting into the system. 

EBEBRATT-Ed

All I can say is good luck. I don't understand how you can get flow through the system the way it is piped. Do you think the rep and the contractor spoke before the reps visit??

Forumjp59

@EBEBRATT-Ed Maybe I need to share better pictures of a specific area with you guys? I'm not sure where to go now. No I'd say there's 0% chance of them speaking before today's visit. 

KC_Jones

Forumjp59 said:

@EdTheHeaterMan So I was able to have a factory rep from Shamrock come out today and explained the situation to him,  showed him the diagrams you guys have drawn up, as well as the owners manual specifically page 29. He took everything we have into consideration while inspecting the system and said everything looked great and he was okay with how it was installed. He really didn't have an answer as to how oxygen would be getting into the system. 

I’d be contacting their boss and let them known you are happy to go to the CEO if need be until you find a human that can properly read their own documentation. If it can perform perfectly fine with an entire pump, that they require, missing, I’d love to hear the explanation for that.

What the heck, send the rep a link to this thread and have them explain to all of us how their recommended pump is apparently not needed on your house.

I think the rep you had come out is clueless and their boss needs to know.

This is truly sad.

I’d be contacting a lawyer to weigh my options. It obvious they aren’t going to budge without a fight.

EBEBRATT-Ed

The way I see it the factory pump on the boiler looks to just pump through the HX and into the little LLH attached to the boiler.

The other circ above is basically for the house heating loop. I see nothing to move the water up and back from the LLH to the closely spaced tees............Unless there is something special in the LLH like a baffle or diverter but their instructions don't point that way.

I am afraid the "factory rep" is more salesman than technician or engineer.

Forumjp59

@EBEBRATT-Ed @EdTheHeaterMan Would you be willing to write out the specs as to what you see wrong with the system vs what the manual/diagram says so I can send it to the company in an email? Stating exactly what needs to be installed? You guys have said it in multiple responses in this thread but I'm having trouble piecing it together. The way I understand it the system is missing a pump entirely, but my lack of knowledge doesn't help me to understand where. His final thoughts were that the air constantly entering the system is from the old style piping with no oxygen barrier, and not from the way it was installed. 

As you said would happen, the noises are now back once the system starts up for the evening, and its almost worse as I can now here flowing water through the pipes/baseboards, as well as a light hum from the upstairs baseboards which was never present before. 

Thank you all again for your efforts! 

EdTheHeaterMan

On or about November 21 2023 made this post on www.HeatingHelp.com “Hey guys, I've had 3 contractors over now to inspect a 1yr old boiler for some loud banging. They give the boiler a clean bill of health and leave. I've ruled out delayed ignition, and am now wondering if it's air in the system. I have 3 zones. Upstairs and downstairs are baseboards, and the main floor is radiant. Can anyone advise on where to bleed the air from judging by the photos? It seems like the random banging (once every few hours while running) has gotten worse after the hvac contractor flushed the hot water heater. Thanks for any help!”

After many posts and recommendations from several experienced experts on the site they have determined that I have an extra pipe or a missing circulator. This is picture of the piping arrangement “as built” by (name of the contractor on (Date of installation)

The experts see the piping arrangement for primary secondary piping as suggested in your manual with a full size pipe with closely spaced tees installed to connect the supply and the return of the boiler. However there is no boiler circulator on the supply or the return between the boiler and the system loop. From what I understand from the experts, without that boiler circulator, the water in the boiler will only flow by gravity from the boiler to the system.

There is a second diagram that shows only one circulator pumping from the boiler to the system and back to the boiler. There are no closely spaced tees in that diagram. At the suggestion of the experts on the forum, I contacted the manufacturers representative for your product that handles my ares. (Name of Rep) sent (Name of person they sent) on or about (date of visit) and Name of person) indicated that the system was properly piped and there should be only one minor change. The contractor sent (name of technician) to make the adjustment on (date) and said that everything is operating properly.

So my question is, does your boiler normally operate with a loud popping noise and was the correct size boiler installed? My home does no get as warm as it dod with the old quiet system that your boiler replaced.
OR
Is the piping incorrect?

The experts from www.HeatingHelp.com believe the piping should not be primary secondary unless there is a boiler circulator and a system circulator. Since I am a novice and only want your boiler to heat my home property, and I do not understand boiler piping, And I have a noisy boiler since it was installed a year ago, And your representative has obviously talked to the contractor prior to the on site inspection, and my next move is to hire an expert to make myself whole when the noisy boiler is removed and a different quieter boiler is properly installed by someone that knows what they are doing, and your expert in the field does not agree with the experts from across the country that have looked at this photo of my system. Please look closely at the photo and make a final decision on whether the boiler is installed according to one of your diagrams in the manual . If you determine that it is installed properly then I will have no recourse but to have this removed and a different brand of boiler installed. I can not live with this noise any longer.

EdTheHeaterMan

EdTheHeaterMan

I would print all the pictures you posted, I would print the 3 pictures I just posted and I would sent this to the company in a certified letter with a return receipt

Keep a copy for yourself.

Good luck with your letter


I wrote the letter from your point of view.

If you want to name the experts, you can use my name Edward Young. Check with Bob Rohr for permission to use his name, he is better known in the industry. You can reach out to @DanHolohan to see if he will lend his name to this issue. There is definitely a problem with the piping, and the factory rep. should have noticed it. The factory rep is clearly new at this and has some learning to do.