Cold upstairs hot downstairs

iizbor3d

Trying to figure out why the upstairs is about 5 degrees colder than the downstairs. I've tried balancing the radiators. Installed upstairs Gorton C vents, and on the 1st floor Gorton #4 and #5 vents. I noticed the 1st floor vents get really loud for a couple of minutes then stop. The 2nd floor vents are pretty silent occasional small bursts of air. Decided to check the main which has maid o mist vents installed. 2 of them have a D orifice, and one has a #6 with a 1/8 thread. None of these vents made any sound and I didn't feel any air coming out of them. I feel the main isn't properly venting and it's all being vented through the 1st floor radiator vents. I took all 3 main vents off and was able to blow air through them. 

leonz

Asbestos????

Do you have an 8 foot bubble level to check the mains for slope to drain back to the boiler??

pedmec

Is this a new problem or did it just start?

As a rule (my own) i always start at the boiler. If i see that the near boiler piping is not piped per manufacturers recommended piping practice i would start there. If you fail there you will always be chasing your tail. Its critical to the overall system performance to get that correct.

Now having said that the near boiler piping is a failure. I, as a heating contractor would fix that first. no need to chase anything until that part is corrected. Wet steam is awful and as piped you will have wet steam. All that condensation that is happening at the boiler piping has nowhere to go but back onto the incoming steam riser and supplies which will kill the steam trying to get to the radiators.

neilc

can we see the boiler controls, the Ptrol, the sightglass,
what pressure are you running at?
I'm not great on vents and sizing, but I don't get warm and fuzzy looking at yours,
and if pressure is or has been too high, they may be locked up and why they're not blowing air,

iizbor3d

leonz said:

Asbestos????

Do you have an 8 foot bubble level to check the mains for slope to drain back to the boiler??

This basement was flooded by Hurricane Sandy. I'd hope they changed the insulattion and it's not asbestos. Still staying away from it just in case. I'll try to get level measurements, I'm sure a laser level is okay?

iizbor3d

pedmec said:

Is this a new problem or did it just start?

As a rule (my own) i always start at the boiler. If i see that the near boiler piping is not piped per manufacturers recommended piping practice i would start there. If you fail there you will always be chasing your tail. Its critical to the overall system performance to get that correct.

Now having said that the near boiler piping is a failure. I, as a heating contractor would fix that first. no need to chase anything until that part is corrected. Wet steam is awful and as piped you will have wet steam. All that condensation that is happening at the boiler piping has nowhere to go but back onto the incoming steam riser and supplies which will kill the steam trying to get to the radiators.

Problem has been around for a long time, neighbor got tired of heating bills and I'm tyring to asist as much as possible. Plumbers came by they mentioned they're not a fan of the piping by the boiler, but they confidently said it shouldn't affect the heat. I looked at it and mentioned this should be properly repiped.

iizbor3d

neilc said:

can we see the boiler controls, the Ptrol, the sightglass,
what pressure are you running at?
I'm not great on vents and sizing, but I don't get warm and fuzzy looking at yours,
and if pressure is or has been too high, they may be locked up and why they're not blowing air,

I'll get pictures, but I did change the pressure. The cutout is set to 1.5psi, the differential was at 2psi. I changed it to the lowest setting slightly below 1. My next step is to change the cutout close to 0.5psi. If I change the main vents to Groton #1 is that a significant difference? Would these vents still be considered locked up even if I'm able to blow air throught them manually?

neilc

I guess if you can blow thru them, and they hold back on steam, then they're functional,
whether they are right sized or not, I won't know,
if you post main lengths and diameters, then others here will comment

KC_Jones

Unless the mains are less than 10’ long you’re going to need Gorton #2 vents.

Based on what I see I would keep expectations on the low side without a full repipe of the boiler. First, the piping is wrong, second I don’t think the pipe size is right and based solely on eye that one needs piped from both outlets.

Restricting steam flow from the boiler that bad can cause the pressure to build prematurely. That means the boiler will keep shutting off on pressure frequently potentially causing distribution issues.

If the boiler was properly piped I’d say go after venting alone, but in this case I think a repipe is needed to have any hopes of getting it right. If the boiler is old, a new boiler should be on the table for consideration as that one, if I was a betting man, is most likely oversized.

iizbor3d

KC_Jones said:

Unless the mains are less than 10’ long you’re going to need Gorton #2 vents.

Based on what I see I would keep expectations on the low side without a full repipe of the boiler. First, the piping is wrong, second I don’t think the pipe size is right and based solely on eye that one needs piped from both outlets.

Restricting steam flow from the boiler that bad can cause the pressure to build prematurely. That means the boiler will keep shutting off on pressure frequently potentially causing distribution issues.

If the boiler was properly piped I’d say go after venting alone, but in this case I think a repipe is needed to have any hopes of getting it right. If the boiler is old, a new boiler should be on the table for consideration as that one, if I was a betting man, is most likely oversized.

Wow that's a lot of unfortunate news. Boiler was replaced after Hurricane sandy in early 2013, I guess the plumber wasn't a steam specialist. My neighbor unfortunetly isn't in the position for a repipe, especially a new boiler. Posibly the Groton #2 might help a little? Will be further discussing with her about at least doing a repipe. Thank you all

KC_Jones

More main venting isn’t bad and should be ungraded regardless of other issues. I wouldn’t view the venting as a magic bullet given everything else I see in that pic. It’s unfortunate these contractors take money for that work, emphasis on the take, as I don’t feel they  are earning it with that work.

I’ll brace for the pros to come after me for bashing their trade, seems to be par for the course lately.

neilc

KC_Jones said:

I’ll brace for the pros to come after me for bashing their trade, seems to be par for the course lately.

nobody here did that pipe job,
(i hope)

iizbor3d

Here are the requested pictures. I noticed the pigtail is parallel with the boiler instead of perpendicular as I usually see. I found 1 section of main that is completely level instead of being pitched away from the boiler. The main is 2", homeowner agreed to replace all 3 vents to Gorton #2 in hopes of some sort of improvement. I also lowered the cut in pressure closer to 0.5 psi, didn't want to bottom it out all the way. Water glass is dirty will be flushing the boiler.

dabrakeman

Out of curiosity are the risers to the upstairs radiators just off one of the mains or off both mains?

iizbor3d

dabrakeman said:

Out of curiosity are the risers to the upstairs radiators just off one of the mains or off both mains?

Both mains have risers going to the 1st or 2nd floor. Not 100% sure where every riser goes.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Not sticking up for bad contractors. I am sure a lot (maybe most) of what was done during Sandy was stick it in and run.

No excuse but that's the way emergencies go sometimes.

iizbor3d

Installed 3 Gortons #2, finally the 2nd floor is the same exact temperature as the 1st floor. Thank you all for the recommendations! However, I noticed one of the Gortons was hissing a lot so i checked the boiler pressure gauge and it's reading 5.5psi and drops to 0psi when boiler turns off. I took off the pressuretrol assumning the pigtail is clogged, but water flowed throught it with ease. I'm assuming the pressuretrol is not properly reading the pressure. Is there a way to test the pressuretrol?

Jamie Hall

What does the pressuretrol think it's doing? What is the cutin set at? The differential? The cutout? Check that first.

iizbor3d

Jamie Hall said:

What does the pressuretrol think it's doing? What is the cutin set at? The differential? The cutout? Check that first.

My appologies missed the information. Cutin is set to what's in the picture a few posts above between 0.5-2psi. The differential inside is set to 1.

Jamie Hall

Sorry. My bad. If the pigtail is really clear, the pressuretrol may well be out of calibration... sadly. Do you have an accurate low pressure gauge? But if the vent is hissing, it's likely that the gauge isn't lying and you really are running a higher pressure than needed.

iizbor3d

The gauge on the boiler is a 0-30 stock gauge. My plan is to install a 0-5 gauge if I am replacing the pressuretrol anyway. I was also able to slide a ziptie through the pigtail with ease. I didn't want to remove the pigtail all the way to avoid breaking it during the heating season.

neilc

looking at your Ptrol pic,
you do have room to dial the indicator down more,
neither the indicator or scale face are dead on accurate,

If you saw 5.5 on the gage when the Ptrol shut off the burner,
What is the pressure as the burner comes back on ?

was the Pigtail off the sightglass fitting when you ran the ziptie?
it is possible that fitting is also clogging into the boiler?
Did you blow thru the pigtail while attached to the upper fitting?
Did it, does it, blow easy? (reprime the pigtail)

The Siiiightglass looks , , ugly, oily, bad, (insert negative comment here)
time to open that Skim port, add a nipple, and fill several buckets,
expect do-over days

iizbor3d

As the burner comes back on, it steadily increases from 0 until it reaches 5.5 again. I didn't remove the pigtail from the fitting due to the fear of breaking it off without having a replacement available. I didn't blow into the pigtail, my next step is to get a barbed 1/4 fitting to attach a hose to blow to verify if it's clogged. But considering how easy water flowed through the fitting and the ziptie went through so easy I don't think it's clogged. Possibly the fitting into the boiler is. Might remove the sight glass and test it through there to avoid removing the pigtail. 

neilc

I wasn't suggesting to remove the pigtail,
I meant to reach down there with your lips, or a hose over its end, and just blow in with your mouth,
remove the Ptrol one more time to test,

If the pigtail and fittings to boiler are clear,
and if that Ptrol is ranging from 0 to 5.5 on the gage,
then you may be due for a fresh Ptrol.
are you sure the differential is at 1, and not spun all the way around past 5?


to be clear, while the thermostat is calling for heat,
and the Ptrol is cycling on pressure,
if the gage is going from 0 to 5,
seems the Ptrol is bad.

iizbor3d

Update, homeowner has a homeserve contract that replaces broken parts on the boiler. 1st tech came out and stated nothing is wrong, the gauge is in the wrong place causing a descrpency. He also said the pressuretrol is set too low and it should be set to least 3.5 psi to get heat upsatirs. He also said the gorton #2 vents are commercial vents and do not belong in a residential home. After arguing with him he left and the company sent out a senior tech. He said gauge is in the wrong place and probably broken. He was eventually convinced to replace the gauge and it still read 5.5psi. He then replaced the pressuretrol and now the boiler turns off at 3psi with pressuretrol set to about 0.5 cutin and 1 differential. Making progress! However, the vent is still hissing even after the boiler shuts off. I thought what if the vent is defective and swapped it out with one of the other installed gorton #2. It confirmed the vent was defective and I also couldn't blow through it facing the vent up. I'll do a blow test on the pigtail to confirm any clogs once a replacement vent arrives.