Do steam experts recommend setting an additive ptrol to .5 (minimum) or closer to 1?

Alexnyu10

My plumber set it between .5 and 2 when they came to do our annual tune up recently to aim for 1, but I remember reading here in the past that it was better to just bottom it out at .5, This is a Residio additive ptrol, and it's a single pipe steam heat system in a 1920's home with a fairly new boiler. The differential dial is set to 1.

Other relevant detail is that this is just sending heat to 3 radiators, and this is the model of the boiler "slant fin GXHA-100"

Jamie Hall

Ask five experts and you will get six answers... I don't care for actually "bottoming out" an pressuretrol, as there is a risk that the internal linkage may become disconnected and it's fiddly to get back together. My usual suggestion is to run it down to about .6 or .7. But that's me.

Alexnyu10

Jamie Hall said:

Ask five experts and you will get six answers... I don't care for actually "bottoming out" an pressuretrol, as there is a risk that the internal linkage may become disconnected and it's fiddly to get back together. My usual suggestion is to run it down to about .6 or .7. But that's me.

Appreciate this and maybe that is what I’ll aim for, a slight reduction because at this moment it’s def closer to halfway point between .5 and 2. def don’t want to accidentally push it to low. 

Also your comment about the 6 answers gave me a great belly laugh and is appreciated : ) 

AdmiralYoda

You want it as low as you can go. 0.5psi with the differential dial set to one is as low as that will go and is ideal. A Vaporstat will let you go even lower.

Sometimes a plumber without expertise in steam will increase the pressure setting to force steam to places quicker.... it is a bandaid, not a solution. Are you experiencing any problems that led the plumber to increase the setting?

EdTheHeaterMan

Lower the pressure and you get more even steam distribution throughout the system is a common fix for your problem when some goofball puts the pressure up to 5 or 6 PSI. If you are operating below 2 PSI, then dropping to 1.5 PSI may not solve your problem(s). You stated "Fairly New Boiler" and that scares me more than the pressure settings. Has the system ever worked properly since the new boiler installation?

To get to the bottom of this, we will need pictures so we can put the Boiler Room Detectives on the case

Alexnyu10

AdmiralYoda said:

You want it as low as you can go. 0.5psi with the differential dial set to one is as low as that will go and is ideal. A Vaporstat will let you go even lower. Sometimes a plumber without expertise in steam will increase the pressure setting to force steam to places quicker.... it is a bandaid, not a solution. Are you experiencing any problems that led the plumber to increase the setting?

That’s the interesting thing, definitely not having any problem getting heat to my 3 radiators, and if anything the pressure I think gets too high and leaks through main vent, which is why I want to lower it. Long story short the main vent is inaccessible without breaking through the floor, so our long term plan is to remove the system and replace with something when this boiler reaches the end of its life (the single pipe system is over 100 years old), because our main vent is def not working right and isn’t accessible from basement or main level without opening up ceiling or floor due to mistakes the past owner made. 

So what you are saying reminds me of the advice I got last year, and I think my plumber just has it in his head that between .5 and 2’ is the sweet spot, and he’s misinformed. Last year I set it myself to .5 and the system still heated great and also didn’t leak steam from main vent nearly as often (only very rarely for a minute or two on a cold day and then the pressuretrol would cut it off quick). 

So based on this, I am going to take the good advice I saw here last year and lower it gently towards .5. 

Just so I can wrap my head around it, besides my issue with the main vent leak, what are the other benefits of keeping it at .5 versus 1?

also big star wars fan here so it’s an honor to get wisdom from you @AdmiralYoda

ethicalpaul

The benefit of keeping it at .5 instead of 1 is that at .5 you are likely to actually cut out at 2.5 the way these things are "calibrated" from the factory (that is to say, not at all).

So you want to put it at the lowest. Adjust it with the cover off so you can see what it's doing, because as Jamie said, you can over-lower it where it will become disconnected.

The most accurate my pressuretrol ever has been was the time I temporarily removed the spring.

BobC

I think the only check the factory does is to make sure it trips at 15PSI, your SOL at low pressures.

Bob

Alexnyu10

ethicalpaul said:

The benefit of keeping it at .5 instead of 1 is that at .5 you are likely to actually cut out at 2.5 the way these things are "calibrated" from the factory (that is to say, not at all). So you want to put it at the lowest. Adjust it with the cover off so you can see what it's doing, because as Jamie said, you can over-lower it where it will become disconnected. The most accurate my pressuretrol ever has been was the time I temporarily removed the spring.

This makes sense, so it sounds like my plumber is giving the factory calibration the benefit of the doubt and doesn’t have the wisdom this group’s experts have to be skeptical of that and play it safe. Def going to gently adjust it to the lowest 

ethicalpaul

If you find that your boiler often cycles (cuts out) during a heating cycle, you can minimize it by minimizing "set back" (where you lower your thermostat at night for example).

You can also replace (or supplement) your p-trol with a "vaporstat" which will force your system to stay at an even lower pressure, although this will tend to increase cycling (which isn't really any kind of major problem for atmospheric gas boilers, IMO)

They are pricey, but they are more likely to keep your pressure very nice and low. It is my opinion that any pressure over like .3 psi is wasteful.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Honeywell-L408J1009-Vaporstat-Controller-Steam-0-to-16-oz-in2

Alexnyu10

ethicalpaul said:

If you find that your boiler often cycles (cuts out) during a heating cycle, you can minimize it by minimizing "set back" (where you lower your thermostat at night for example).

You can also replace (or supplement) your p-trol with a "vaporstat" which will force your system to stay at an even lower pressure, although this will tend to increase cycling (which isn't really any kind of major problem for atmospheric gas boilers, IMO)

They are pricey, but they are more likely to keep your pressure very nice and low. It is my opinion that any pressure over like .3 psi is wasteful.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Honeywell-L408J1009-Vaporstat-Controller-Steam-0-to-16-oz-in2

Appreciate this so much @ethicalpaul
we already are keeping the thermostat set at 70 24/7 to help address this, and glad to hear you also recommend this strategy (versus letting it drop overnight). Currently it doesn't cut out often during the heating cycle, but I actually would like it to cut out a little earlier so the pressure doesn't build to the point where steam escapes the faulty main vent. I successfully lowered my ptrol down to .5 this morning per advice here, and I am going to monitor it this week to see if this helps me find the sweet spot where once my radiators get nice and hot, the boiler cuts off so it doesnt lead to the extra pressure pushing steam out of the main vent. If the issue persists, I am going to research the vaporstat option. I don't mind that price at all, if I could pay $500 total for the vaporstat and installation (no chance you service the Brooklyn, NY area? my plumber is a great guy but I just don't think he is a steam expert).

ethicalpaul

Ahh OK if lower pressure is your goal then yes, see how your new setting on your ptrol does, but probably the easiest way to get it lower if desired is the vaporstat I linked.

I don't service any area, I'm a NJ homeowner However I have gone to people's houses to help them in DIY efforts, for free of course. I'm in NYC every day so drop me a PM if you want a hand. You can install this yourself if you are handy with basic tools. Installing a new main vent is usually even easier. Yours is faulty?

If you want to hire someone you might try @Mad Dog_2 I bet he would install a vaporstat or main vent for you.

EdTheHeaterMan

Alexnyu10 said:

Long story short the main vent is inaccessible without breaking through the floor, so our long term plan is to remove the system and replace with something when this boiler reaches the end of its life (the single pipe system is over 100 years old), because our main vent is def not working right and isn’t accessible from basement or main level without opening up ceiling or floor due to mistakes the past owner made.

Removing the system is a drastic and maybe regrettable idea.

I understand that the main vent is inaccessible right now. But what is keeping you from cutting a hole in the floor? Replace the main vent. Then have a talented craftsman fabricate a fancy access panel to cover the newly installed hole in the floor. You know my house has a hole in the front wall. I believe it was put there by the builder back in 1976. It makes it easy to get inside the house from outside and to my amazement it also works in reverse. I can go from outside to inside. It is amazing what ancient technology is out there!

And, to top it all off, the builder placed a door on that hole… That is a large flat block of wood with hinges on one side and some form of latch on the other side. Wonders never cease.

Edit: I had a friend that has a car where the windshield wipers wore out. Perhaps you would recommend purchasing a new car when that happens.

I had a friend that has a bicycle where the chain fell off the sprocket out. Perhaps you would recommend purchasing a new bicycle when that happens.

I had a friend that has a house where the paint was pealing. Perhaps you would recommend purchasing a new house when that happens.

Alexnyu10

EdTheHeaterMan said:

Alexnyu10 said:

Long story short the main vent is inaccessible without breaking through the floor, so our long term plan is to remove the system and replace with something when this boiler reaches the end of its life (the single pipe system is over 100 years old), because our main vent is def not working right and isn’t accessible from basement or main level without opening up ceiling or floor due to mistakes the past owner made.

Removing the system is a drastic and maybe regrettable idea.

I understand that the main vent is inaccessible right now. But what is keeping you from cutting a hole in the floor? Replace the main vent. Then have a talented craftsman fabricate a fancy access panel to cover the newly installed hole in the floor. You know my house has a hole in the front wall. I believe it was put there by the builder back in 1976. It makes it easy to get inside the house from outside and to my amazement it also works in reverse. I can go from outside to inside. It is amazing what ancient technology is out there!

And, to top it all off, the builder placed a door on that hole… That is a large flat block of wood with hinges on one side and some form of latch on the other side. Wonders never cease.



@EdTheHeaterMan this is a great point and I am definitely open to your idea, we (and our cats especially) LOVE our radiators and steam heat, and our boiler is new from 2021 so it really could last 20 years since we plan to take great care of it with annual maintenance. One question for you, if we decide to keep the system, is it necessary to replace the pipes at least every 100 years give or take (the pipes of the single pipe steam system), or in theory could we just fix that vent and leave those old pipes be? Part of me thinks if we were already opening floor to get to main vent, we would want to use it as a chance to replace the pipes to the steam system as well. Curious your thoughts on this, because I love idea of keeping steam in the house but want to plan for it. Our hardwood floors will need to be replaced in about 10 years, so that might be perfect opportunity to replace the pipes when we are replacing those floor anyways (we already refinished our hardwood floors this year, and were told that in 10 years they will need to be fully replaced because they have been refinished to the max!)

EdTheHeaterMan

Actually, I only recommend replacing 100+ year old pipes if they are rusted thru. And then only the rusted thru pipes. I highly recommend having the pipes steam cleaned on the inside. I recommend that you steam clean the inside of the pipes every time the thermostat calls for heat. Replacing that vent will go a long way to proper steam cleaning the insides of those pipes.

Alexnyu10

EdTheHeaterMan said:

Actually, I only recommend replacing 100+ year old pipes if they are rusted thru. And then only the rusted thru pipes. I highly recommend having the pipes steam cleaned on the inside. I recommend that you steam clean the inside of the pipes every time the thermostat calls for heat. Replacing that vent will go a long way to proper steam cleaning the insides of those pipes.

@EdTheHeaterMan appreciate this immensely, do you by chance service the Brooklyn, NY area or recommend anyone who I could contact in the future to discuss the best way to fix this main vent and my entire system. Another user recommended Mad Dog_2 and I will def reach out to him unless you do this yourself or have another good rec

EdTheHeaterMan

I am not real sure how you like your hardwood floors refinished, but here are 2 different ideas on what a real hardwood floor craftsman might be able to do for you . I recommend that you get this done sooner than 10 years from now. Like this month would be my suggestion.

Sadly I am no longer in the NJ area. I live in South Carolina now to be with my grandson who just turned 5 years old last week. And the fact that I am confined to a wheelchair gives me no standing in the HVAC community anymore. I don't even have a leg to stand on.

If @Mad Dog_2 is in your area. then I would recommend him highly. Mostly because almost anyone that can stand on their own two legs will be much higher than me.

Good luck with your project.

Alexnyu10

EdTheHeaterMan said:

I am not real sure how you like your hardwood floors refinished, but here are 2 different ideas on what a real hardwood floor craftsman might be able to do for you . I recommend that you get this done sooner than 10 years from now. Like this month would be my suggestion. Sadly I am no longer in the NJ area. I live in South Carolina now to be with my grandson who just turned 5 years old last week. And the fact that I am confined to a wheelchair gives me no standing in the HVAC community anymore. I don't even have a leg to stand on. If @Mad Dog_2 is in your area. then I would recommend him highly. Mostly because almost anyone that can stand on their own two legs will be much higher than me. Good luck with your project.

@EdTheHeaterMan you are more an expert and helpful from your seat than most standing idiots. Appreciate your help so much and these pics are super helpful 

ethicalpaul

I missed the part where you were talking about ripping out your steam system. I would advise strongly against that idea. Many many people have been promised fantastic replacement systems only to be disappointed and regretful.

The main vent can exist in different locations depending on the system--I'm sure there is a solution for your system.

Steam pipes tend not to rust out. The water return pipes tend to rust out or clog eventually, but those are a lot easier to replace, so no big deal.

neilc

post a picture of where your main vent is, from the bottom, the basement, where it's sticking up into the ceiling under that floor,
if it's on a nipple riser, and hiding up inside the ceiling framing,
can you get a wrench on the nipple, and pull both out the bottom?
let's see what we're talking about,

EdTheHeaterMan

neilc said:

post a picture of where your main vent is, from the bottom, the basement, where it's sticking up into the ceiling under that floor,
if it's on a nipple riser, and hiding up inside the ceiling framing,
can you get a wrench on the nipple, and pull both out the bottom?
let's see what we're talking about,

Have you not been reading this thread. You can't get to it. At All!

I think his picture might look like this

neilc

i'm not sure if you're serious or not right now Ed,
I found this,

Alexnyu10 said:

, , , Long story short the main vent is inaccessible without breaking through the floor, so our long term plan is to remove the system , , ,

, , , because our main vent is def not working right and isn’t accessible from basement or main level without opening up ceiling or floor due to mistakes the past owner made , , ,

did I piss in your cherios ?

EdTheHeaterMan

neilc said:

did I piss in your cherios ?

LOL. I like your reply. And NO you didn't piss in my cheerios...

I am being a bit sarcastic because @Alexnyu10 has indicated that you can't get to it on what appears to be several occasions. No matter how many times we talk about it. Auto response is

Long story short the main vent is inaccessible

. But really he only mentioned it 2 times and several responses have "Quoted" that remark so it seams like it is a recurring theme.

Thanks for the laugh

neilc

ok,
cool,
#giggling

dabrakeman

If your main vent is leaking steam very often then you are likely losing water in the boiler which has to be replaced with fresh oxygen rich water. This will significantly increase corrosion in your boiler and reduce the life expectancy. So, replace that main vent asap!

ethicalpaul

There is no such thing as inaccessible

neilc

EdTheHeaterMan said:

oh?

dabrakeman

I would also be a little concerned about mold in that confined area if the main vent leaks steam. IF you know you are going to replace the wood floor in the not too distant future then seems logical to go ahead and cut an access panel in through the floor. Can move the main vent to an accessible location when do the new floor. I will borrow @nelic 's moniker, "known to beat dead horses".