mini splits working in conjunction with oil boiler

jmwilkinson56

I had four Mitsubishi mini's installed in June. When HVAC and electrician left, my boiler ran all night, wouldn't communicate with the thermostat, resulting in 90-degree temps in the house. The following day electrician came back and turned the heat off. Yesterday, I attempted to turn the heat on for the first time in the season, and my thermostats are not communicating with the boiler, so I do not have heat in my house other than from the minis. Is this an HVAC or electrical problem? Boiler works fine when heating hot water, just doesn't respond to any of my thermostat zones.

Big Ed_4

I would check the wiring of the thermostat to the connection at the boiler . Sad to say you would be better off with a HVAC tech .

jmwilkinson56

The HVAC tech hired the electrician. There are five zones in my house and none of the thermostats can communicate with the boiler. In June, when they left, the boiler wouldn't turn off and heat poured into the house until the next day when the electrician returned and turned it off. Since then I haven't used heat. Now that it's cold outside, my thermostats do not communicate with the boiler so I cannot turn on the heat. The boiler heats the hot water just fine.

flat_twin

If I had mini splits in addition to my hot water boiler / indirect, I would want the mini splits to handle heating down to around 35-40 degrees outdoor temp. Colder than that the boiler would handle all space heating. What are your expectations for this system? You've known since June there's a control issue and waited until now to find a solution. I think you need to find a more competent HVAC tech.

Jamie Hall

Something is very much wrong with the way the thermostats are wired or programmed. Some thermostats -- not all -- can be wired so as to control both the mini-splits (using them as first stage heat) and the boiler (as second heat). However, this is not true of all thermostats. Worse, the problem may be at only one of the thermostats -- although I wouldn't be at all surprised if the installer of the mini-splits made the same mistake with all of them.

This is really an HVAC problem, but you need someone who actually knows what he or she is doing with the thermostats, the mini-split system, and the boiler -- and it doesn't sound as though the person you have does.

pecmsg

The Mitsubishis, are they controlled by the remotes or a wall stat?
1 outdoor unit and 4 indoor or 2 & 2?
The heating Hot water or Steam?
If HW how many zones?

Final question why aren't you using the Mitsubishis for heat?

PeteA

sounds like the wire to your boiler from the original thermostat may have gotten damaged somewhere during the install. Are you handy? Maybe you can send some photos of your original thermostat and then the front of your boiler so folks can see how it was originally wired up.
If the hotwater is working then that means the controls to that point are good just need to figure out where the break is between the old thermostat and the boiler controller.

jmwilkinson56

Hi Pecmsg and PeteA...I have three minis on one large compressor and one mini on a separate compressor. I am using the minis for heat where I have them, but I have six zones, two of which are bedrooms and so far don't have minis up there. There are thermostats for the boiler in each zone, none are communicating with the boiler. I got the flair integrated system, but honestly don't find it helpful so we just use the remotes for each mini. Thanks for getting back to me. PeteA the electrician and HVAC team that did the job are telling me that since they finished in June, it's not their problem. Trouble is, the first night they left, the boiler/heat in a zone with a mini ran all night and couldn't be controlled by the thermostat. It was almost 90 degrees in the kitchen and family room. The electrician came back the next day and did something to stop the boiler from running. I presumed he knew what he was doing and because it was summer, I never tried to use the thermostats again until yesterday when I realized they are not communicating with the boiler. Thanks to both of you for getting back to me!

jmwilkinson56

Flat twin...the point is I haven't known since June that there's a control issue and waited until now to find a solution. The boiler ran all night, heating the kitchen and family room to 90 degrees, the first night I was told the job was complete. The following morning the electrician returned, turned it off and told me he had fixed the problem. I had no reason to turn the heat on in any of my zones until yesterday when I realized that none of the thermostats were communicating with the boiler so I had no heat in the bedrooms as the minis are only downstairs. Thanks.

pecmsg

You need a tech on site. 

How was the heat controlled before the minis were instead?

PeteA

I think if the "electrician" went to the boiler and stopped it from running he just cut or disconnected the wire from the thermostats and left on the aquastat controller that would let it continue to produce hot water but isolate it from any calls for heat.
The folks on this board do some amazing work with a couple of good pictures to analyze but in my electric thinking mind it seems like they just disable a part of the circuit going up to the thermostats. If you always had 6 zones but now you only have 3 zones they may have twisted the wires from any thermostats they removed together and pushed them back in the wall, which would explain the constant running.
For your own sanity you may need to bring new low voltage wires from those 3 zones back down to whatever controls your boiler and redo those wires to get them to run independently again.

jmwilkinson56

The heat from the boiler was controlled by thermostats...I have five zones. Now none of the thermostats are communicating with the boiler. Since I don't use heat in the summer, I didn't realize this issue existed until I tried to turn the heat on in the bedrooms yesterday. The minis are controlled by remotes so I have heat where there are minis (kitchen, family room, basement and over the garage not in bedrooms though)

pecmsg

Nice contractor claiming it’s not there issue!

id make them come back. You should have at least a 1 year warranty. 

Threaten to report then to your attorney general. 

jmwilkinson56

Hi Pete and Pecmsg...Thank you so much for your responses. My posts are confusing, I have six zones controlled by thermostats that were communicating with the boiler until I had the minis installed. Now none of my thermostats are communicating with the boiler, the only heat I have is from the minis, none of which are in the bedrooms. Is this an HVAC issue or an electrician issue? Both deny that they are responsible.

PeteA

@jmwilkinson56
I understand that the devices are controlled separately but my comments and replies will still be the same.
When the folks did the work at you place something was done to cause the boiler to run constantly up to 90 degrees in your house. This was either a short in the wiring caused by a screw or a nail or possibly one of the old thermostats was removed and rewired incorrectly or removed completely and the wires twisted and pushed into the wall etc, something caused it to signal the boiler to run constantly. The next thing that occurred was an "electrician" or HVAC guy came and got it to stop signaling the boiler which prevented it from running constantly, but technically he/she didn't fix anything. They just broke the path from the thermostats to the boiler controller to stop it from calling for constant heat, but they knew enough to leave the device that tells the boiler to make hot water intact. Fast forward to today and you can not get the thermostats to activate the boiler because of what that person did to stop it back in June. Technically it is their fault, but photos of your set up at the boiler controller may help folks spot the location where your device is constantly calling for heat or where the person cut off the wire so it is no longer receiving the feedback from your thermostats.

EdTheHeaterMan

This Flair Puck system has a different instruction book for mini-split and a different instruction book for central with smart vent systems. There is no indication that the Flair Puck works with boilers. It appears that the Flair Puck will connect to other WiFi devices in order to have one place to control all the thermostats. The Flair Puck is not a thermostat itself.

So the first question is: What thermostat operates each zone of your oil boiler system BEFORE you got the Flair Puck.

Next question: Did you get all new boiler zone thermostats when the Flair Puck was installed? ...and what thermostat are currently operating the boiler Zones?

With that information perhaps there is an easy answer to your problem.
@pecmsg would love this stuff! This sounds better than the Nest he loves so much!

jmwilkinson56

The flair pucks aren't being used at all. They never seem to work. We use the remotes to control the minis. All of the thermostats in each of my six zones are original, none were changed during the mini-installation.

EdTheHeaterMan

pecmsg said:

Nice contractor claiming it’s not there issue!

id make them come back. You should have at least a 1 year warranty. 

Threaten to report then to your attorney general. 

Agree with this guy. (on this point only )
So is there a contract or invoice from someone that was responsible for connecting the Mini-splits?
Does that contract include the Flair Puck system?
If not, then who provided the Flair Puck system?
This will determine who is responsible for the proper operation of your whole system Heat, air conditioning, Flair integrated system, and whatever thermostats are involved with the boiler zones.

Verbal agreements are hard to verify. you need it in writing.

Let us know what you find. and again: What thermostats are controlling the oil boiler zones?

jmwilkinson56

Edtheheaterman.....The flair pucks aren't being used at all. They never seem to work. We use the remotes to control the minis. All of the thermostats in each of my six zones are original, none were changed during the mini-installation. Not one of them currently is communicating with the boiler so no heat other than where I have minis.

What I cannot figure out is why they would need to even touch my boiler or my thermostats. What do they have to do with the mini-operation? They all have units outside that run them! Wish I'd noticed this sooner, it's getting cold so all the HVAC guys are busy. I've called a few reputable local companies that have been around for a while. Hoping to hear back tomorrow!

Jamie Hall

A couple of other questions. Sorry. I think @EdTheHeaterMan meant to say "what thermostats are supposed to be controlling the oil boiler zones", since obviously they aren't. Then how are the zones supposed to be activated? Zone valves? Individual pumps? It makes a difference.

That said, a thermostat is simply a switch. It may be a rather fancy switch, but it's a switch, and there will be two wires from it -- usually, but not always, red and white. The other end of that pair of wires will be connected to a control near the boiler. Sometimes directly to a zone valve. Sometimes through a relay or control board. It would seem that two things have happened here. First, someone managed to short out that pair of wires from one of the thermostats. That would make the system run all the time. Then someone else disabled the signal to the boiler from the valves or control relays, and that stopped the boiler from running -- but also shut off the heat.

You -- or someone who actually knows something about hot water heat -- needs to get in there and figure out if the thermostats are correctly wired, if their control wires are intact, and if they are properly connects.

If you are handy with electrical things, you could probably figure it out.

By the way, a few pictures of the system and its controls wouldn't hurt...

EdTheHeaterMan

Agree with @Jamie Hall assumptions.
My guess is that there are some type of WiFi thermostats controlling the boiler zones.. wether or not they ever worked is the first part of solving the problem. Then someone needs to be able to determine if the Flair system will connect to the oil boiler zone thermostats.

That said, when the Flare system was connected to whatever thermostats were supposed to operate the boiler zones, the electrician was sent to solve the problem. Unable to get it right, the electrician just kicked the can down the road by disconnected the wire that was making the boiler zone over heat the home.

So that is why I am interested in what is actually there. It may not be compatible with the Flare Puck integrated system. https://flair.co/products/puck

The limited information Flair provides has no wiring diagrams that illustrate how it activates a 24 VAC relay of zone valve

jmwilkinson56

I'd like to disconnect the flair system if that's the issue, I didn't want them, they barely work so I don't even use them. What would I take pictures of to post?

EdTheHeaterMan

The thermostats in each zone
If the thermostats pop off easily from the wall and leave the wiring backplate on the wall, then a picture of the wires connected to the backplate (optional)
a picture of the boiler room so we can see the attached piping.
a picture of any controls that might be attached to the side of the boiler or on the wall near the boiler.
a picture of any zone valves on the pipes near the boiler. Zone valves will have wires attached.

jmwilkinson56

The HVAC guy said the boiler running all night pumping heat until we turned off the emergency switch is unrelated to the current situation. It never occurred to me after they left to run around my house in the summer to check the equipment that to my knowledge was never touched by them or had anything to do with the minis! The HVAC guy told me he tested the system in June, it worked, and that the electrician fixed the overheating problem. Therefore, it's something that broke over the summer and not his problem.

SuperTech

Pictures?

EBEBRATT-Ed

This is all guessing. No one can tell what is wrong until someone gets on site.

Your HVAC guy and the electrician installed it they are responsible.

Whi did you pay the money to? Who sold you the job?

That is the person to call the owner of that company.

Make them come back and finish the job. You want the boiler controls to work as they did before.

This is another case of throwing the equipment in and not finishing the job or caring if it works.

If they do not respond

and you need a new contractor check "find a contractor on this site" and post your location someone may recommend someone.

jmwilkinson56

jmwilkinson56

Here are the pictures, it took a while to get this site on my cell. Thank you to everyone who has weighed in on this issue. Meanwhile, after speaking with the contractor yesterday to tell him no thermostats and no heat, he told me he'd check with his electrician and get back to me. Never heard from him.

Jamie Hall

There ought to be a law... that control wiring shall always be attached neatly to terminal strips and clearly labelled. Although I will admit that it looks as though there might be some labels in that spaghetti bowl.

Really without being there with a test light and a meter, I wouldn't even know where to begin. Be easy enough if one were on site, though, and knew what one was doing and what the widgets were supposed to do.

jmwilkinson56

Well, after reading the comment mentioning "there ought to be a law" decided to call the town and find out if these guys pulled a permit they told me multiple times they did. Turns out, they did not pull the required permit.

PeteA

@jmwilkinson56 seems like your going to have to reach out to get some help for this repair. I don't think the person you will hire will take too long to get the power to the thermostats restored since the transformer is looks to be already sitting on your boiler unused, the time will be spent sorting through the wiring and figuring out where the short is that is calling for constant heat.
I don't think you've mentioned whether or not your handy with any of this stuff but an informed person at least can understand what's being explained when the pro does show up to your house so I think it would be good for you to watch a video thats posted on youtube by Mikey Pipes-Zone valve wiring for beginners- He does these vidoes and he is a real character but he does a good job breaking things down and may help you understand how these things work together to allow your system to work properly.
Anyone from the link above on the "find a contractor in your area" bar should be able to remedy this pretty quickly to at least get your heat up and running while they troubleshoot the wiring.

pecmsg

Jamie Hall said:

There ought to be a law... that control wiring shall always be attached neatly to terminal strips and clearly labelled. 

We don’t need more laws (hell they’re not followed or enforced anyway) we need techs that take pride in their work. 

jmwilkinson56

Just want to thank everyone for their assistance....electrician here right now. Multiple transformers are blown. There was no kuomo cloud although I was charge for one and for the setup. As I said earlier, no permit was pulled. I guess the wiring is a total mess. He'll probably be here for a while. Great site. Thanks again!

jmwilkinson56

By the way...no I'm not handy when it comes to electricity and wiring! Wish I was.

PeteA

jmwilkinson56 said:

Just want to thank everyone for their assistance....electrician here right now. Multiple transformers are blown. There was no kuomo cloud although I was charge for one and for the setup. As I said earlier, no permit was pulled. I guess the wiring is a total mess. He'll probably be here for a while. Great site. Thanks again!

Glad it is finally getting fixed for you. Good luck and have a warm winter.