Steam Trap

JVardell

I am trying to find information on a 2 pipe steam system. I am trying to identify this valve. Have not been able to find information anywhere.

Steamhead

That's a "Moline Heat" system. AFAIK no other company used those lock-shield valves on the returns.

This system is covered in chapter 15 of @DanHolohan 's "The Lost Art of Steam Heating".

Mad Dog_2

Very odd...I've never seen one mounted sideways 😳 have u Frankie? DANO?  Mad Dog 🐕 

Steamhead

Not often, but there's no reason it wouldn't work.

Gordo

What's maybe inside your return connection...
Please let us know if this helps.
https://youtu.be/QQ-wbjh2izI

JVardell

Would you recommend removing these valves and replacing both supply and return with new steam valve and trap? or should I keep them and install a main line vent? or both like the weil mcclain rep. is suggesting?

Steamhead

A Moline system doesn't need traps. Vent the mains.

The Moline used an ejector at the end of the dry (overhead) return. Is yours still there?

mattmia2

It is a vapor system, it doesn't use traps, the combination of controlling the pressure of the boiler and those metering inlet valves controls the amount of steam let in to the radiators to less than what they can condense so there is no steam left at the outlet of the radiator, the radiator consumes all of it if the boiler is set up correctly.

reggi

@JVardell No matter how I look at your steam trap I cannot even come close to any known system based on the assorted letters that should form the maker...  There appears to be multiple S's but a better picture up closer and level should at least give a point to research the archives and look for the information you are searching for...

Steamhead

reggi said:

@JVardell No matter how I look at your steam trap I cannot even come close to any known system based on the assorted letters that should form the maker...  There appears to be multiple S's but a better picture up closer and level should at least give a point to research the archives and look for the information you are searching for...

That return fitting is not a trap. It's a valve that you need a key to operate. The reason it's there is to close the return connection if the radiator needs to be disconnected, as for example when painting the wall behind it.

JVardell

This is what I have on return lines.

Jamie Hall

In that last picture -- the device labelled "steam trap" isn't. It's a vent.

JVardell

I did not see a ejector on this system. The moline air trap and vacuum valve are still in place. do you think the old moline air trap and vacuum valve will still work?

JVardell

This radiator is also in the basement.

Steamhead

@JVardell , it's likely there. It looks like a tee but says "Moline" on it. In this thread:

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/182196/found-a-moline-heat-system-near-baltimore

the third pic that @AMservices posted shows the ejector. On this one, the steam goes into the right side, the dry return connection is on the bottom, and the exhaust is on the left. The exhaust connects to a bell reducer which increases the pipe size, leading to a condensing pipe which runs around the basement. After that comes the air trap and vacuum valve.

Look again- you'll find it.

And replace that old Dole vent with a Gorton #2. The Dole has a pathetically small air throughput and is certainly holding back the steam distribution. I found one earlier this week on a Kriebel system, and the owner was amazed at how fast the system heated when I installed the Gorton.

AMservices

Hard to see, but that looks like your steam ejector 

Steamhead

JVardell said:

This radiator is also in the basement.

@JVardell , if that radiator is fed from the ejector, it is a "condensing radiator" which condenses the steam coming from the ejector. If so, there won't be a long condensing pipe.

AMservices

The steam ejector Does a lot work in this system. 
It looks like a fancy "T" and has 3 connections to it. 
You will find it at the end of your dry return, with a steam supply line from the end of the main steam line. 
It's first job is to act as a main air vent for the main steamline.
After the Main has filled, steam bleeds through the ejector into the condensers loop, or maybe in your case, a ceiling mounted radiator. 
The ejector only allows a little steam into  condenser so steam never reaches the vacuum vent. 
Side not: this is how you want to control your radiators, by throttle your steam supply valves, so to have the radiators condense all the steam, before it can enter the dry return. No steam traps on this system. That's one of the reasons it's my favorite. 
 The condensers condenses (image that) and a vacuum forms. But air isn't sucking through the vacuum vent, (not supposed to at least) so it's now make a negative pressure on the dry return, pulling steam into the radiators faster. 
Truly a thing of beauty in its simplicity and performance. 
Wish I had 1.

reggi

Steamhead said:

@JVardell No matter how I look at your steam trap I cannot even come close to any known system based on the assorted letters that should form the maker...  There appears to be multiple S's but a better picture up closer and level should at least give a point to research the archives and look for the information you are searching for...

That return fitting is not a trap. It's a valve that you need a key to operate. The reason it's there is to close the return connection if the radiator needs to be disconnected, as for example when painting the wall behind it.

Yes @Steamhead .. I was using the OP's term  in the thread and forgot to put "quote" "marks" around it.. Thank You for pointing that out 👍

JVardell

I've finally got the go ahead to replace the boiler on a Moline steam vapor/vacuum system. I want to make sure that i size it correctly. Total house radiation square footage. I've got is 429 1st flr. 243 2nd flr. 429+243=672

Based off the lost art of steam book I did a pick up factor of 1.5 672 x 1.5 = 1008 total house radiation sq. ft.

1008 x 240 = 241,920 btu

I was planning on installing a Weil Mcclain EG-75 boiler. D.O.E heating capacity MBH steam = 234

Net ahri ratings steam sq./ft. = 733

Would this be the correct size ?

Existing boiler is a PEGBDE 299,999 input, D.O.E heating capacity 243,000, Net IBR Rating steam 760 s.f.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Looks right but some do not think you need the standard 1.33 PU factor much less the 1.5. That is a judgement call. A lot of pipe in the system especially uninsulated pipe, cold crawl space or basement etc etc. Chances are you could downsize it a bit.

I think the most important thing is how did the system perform with the existing boiler if you know.

The Steam Whisperer

Look into the posts for orifice plate systems. This is what you have. With these systems, you no longer need to base the boiler size off the radiation. We typically size these boilers to the current heat load, usually around 60% of the radiator capacity plus some extra for piping losses. Usually you'll end up with a boiler about 50 to 60% the size calculated for the radiation plus standard pick up. That amounts to about a 12% fuel usage reduction in our experience.

JVardell

Thank you guys for input. This hard for me to decide. The existing boiler was 299,000 and was installed prior to 1984. I will be reducing it down to 234,000 btu. Home owner existing boiler worked well for him even though it was not piped correctly or maintenance. I keep going back to the lost art of steam book and 1.5 pickup factor for old two piped vapor /vacuum systems. There is alot of piping, no insulation on piping, single pane windows, very poor insulation in home. Other than a savings in fuel what would be some issues if it still was oversized? I was planning on insulating all the piping near the boiler.