Boiler help

Kenny100

Good morning. First off, I would like to say thank you to everyone who posts and replies in this forum. I have been a lurker for a few months. 

Apol,ogies to begin wi,th, I am a complete Novice when it comes to these things but a quick learner. 

I moved in with my grandmother last year into a three-family home, and her Steam boiler, a Carrier BS2AAN000187ABAA, heats the house very well but continuously short cycles. It turns on for 7 minutes, turns off for 2 minutes, turns back on for 9 minutes, and repeats 
I believe the boiler is about 10-15 years old. It has never been skimmed. The only thing she said she maintained that my grandfather taught her to do was to take water once a week to clean sediment, 
so I’m asking the boiler friends on the board for any information I should do to make her boiler run more efficiently 

Thank you 

ScottSecor

You need to pinpoint the cause of the short cycling. Probably one of the following:
Low water cutoff is tripping due to unstable water level (very likely).
Low water cutoff probe (connects to back of lwco goes inside boiler to sense water level). (likely)
Thermostat anticipator set incorrectly (possible).
Pressuretrol acting up (unlikely)
Loose wiring connection (very unlikely).

Crank the thermostat to 85 degrees. Watch the low water cutoff lights and the gauge glass at the same time. Is the water level steady? Is the water clean? Does the low water light turn on and the flame turn off at the same time. If so, focus on this.

Mad Dog_2

Good morning Kenny. Where are you located?  Mad Dog 🐕 

Kenny100

Mad Dog_2 said:

Good morning Kenny. Where are you located?  Mad Dog 🐕 

Queens NY

Jamie Hall

That's actually not a bad install. Not quite perfect, but... not bad.

There's actually one other cause for the "short cycling" which you mention. The boiler is bigger than it should be for the installed radiation -- and if I were a betting man, I'd put that one first in the list. However, the cycle timings you mention are not actually that far out of line, so the boiler isn't outrageously too big. The other possibility, which he also didn't list, is inadequate main venting. Fortunately it's not that hard to tell, or at least get a sort of clue about -- inadequate main venting will cause the boiler to start to cycle very soon after it starts to warm up, before all the radiators are beginning to get hot or just as they are, while slight oversize will wait until most of the radiators are really hot.

Kenny100

Thank you all for the comments. Really appreciate it. I will try and see if I can get someone for the LWCO to clean or replace it. I saw some videos on how to DIY but am nervous I will ruin it. 
Also, I am scared to call a plumber to add a skimming port and break something else in the line or crack a pipe due to it being in place for so long. Or am I just being paranoid??

109A_5

Hello @Kenny100,
I think before I paid anyone to do or replace anything besides manufacture's recommended maintenance, I would observe it running to determine what is causing the 2 minute interruption.

If the "It turns on for 7 minutes, turns off for 2 minutes, turns back on for 9 minutes, and repeats" is fairly consistent;

The LWCO has an indicator LED and you would see the water level drop off in the sight glass.

Heat anticipator, at the instant is goes for a 2 minute break turning up the thermostat would cause it to fire up the boiler again or if the thermostat is set way too high I will never take the break.

If it is cycling on pressure a low pressure gauge or a Voltmeter across the Pressuretrol switch contacts.
post pictures of the main venting.
If you are really ambitious you could a EDR survey to see if the boiler is oversized.

Kenny100

Thank you to all who responded. So I haven’t gotten it skimmed or cleaned the LWCO sensor but turned the boiler on for the first time in the heating season and this is the sight glass. I drained a bucket of water/sediment out and the boiler automatically shut off and refilled on its own. So that’s a good sign. Is there anything else recommended I should do??

thank you agajn

bburd

Yes: add water until the water line in the gauge glass reaches the "water level" sticker. Then keep it there. And if it continues to need much makeup water, investigate where it is leaking out as either water or steam.

If you have an auto feeder ("refilled on its own") the water level setting needs adjustment.

Kenny100

So the boiler is starting and stopping. The water in the sight glass is surging up and down but not a lot. And the LWCO light blinks red a few times stays solid and stops back to green.  Also is that the Oils on top of the clean water in the sight glass? Is that normal?

bburd

The gauge glass is dirty from rust and other sediment in the water. It can be removed and cleaned, but this is a bit tricky because they break easily and you would probably need new gaskets.

I cannot tell from the picture if there is oil inside, but if the level bounces by no more than 1/2 inch when running you probably don't have oil in the water.

Kenny100

Any reason why the LWCO blinks red and stays solid for a few seconds while boiler running??

109A_5

Hello @Kenny100,
Find the center of where the probe from the LWCO enters the boiler. Extend a level line over to your sight glass. The water level has to remain comfortably above the probe so the LWCO does not trip during the total call for heat duration. Assuming a clean properly working boiler. As @bburd mentioned the LWCO may have to be adjusted to maintain a water level in the sweet zone.

In your pictures it is hard to tell the water level compared to the LWCO and the level sticker on the boiler since the photo were taken from way above the desired water line.

An example image yours may be a bit different.

Kenny100

Thank you again for all the input. Here is the pic of LWCO and glass. 

The probe has never been cleaned/replaced

109A_5

Hello @Kenny100,
Probe cleaning may help, but the LWCO is seems to work. I would run the water level higher, see picture. Level with the Water Line sticker on the boiler jacket.

Kenny100

I will try that now. When I drain the water to clean the sediment it ,auto-fills to the line with the marker. It doesn't go any higher.. Could this issue also be the thermostat?? it's an old Emerson 1F70, it's on an outside wall. My complaint is this is a three story home, and we have the heat on high so it can get to the 3rd floor.

109A_5

Hello @Kenny100,

I would think the temperature of an outside wall and any draft through the hole for the wires would keep the boiler on longer, not shut it off mid cycle. If the thermostat has a 'Heat Anticipator' and it is adjusted wrong the thermostat could shut it off early.

Actually you may need to adjust the Water Feeder unit the keep the water in a sweet zone. Or do it manually and use the Auto fill as a backup in case you forget.

Maybe your model.
https://www.sidharvey.com/documents/UNI-08244_Instal.pdf

Kenny100

The thermostat does have an anticipator and the basement and first floor are just so hot!! while 3rd floor is just ok. so we have the thermostat at 72+ so we are boiling in the lower levels to have the heat push to the higher floor.

109A_5 said:

Hello @Kenny100,

I would think the temperature of an outside wall and any draft through the hole for the wires would keep the boiler on longer, not shut it off mid cycle. If the thermostat has a 'Heat Anticipator' and it is adjusted wrong the thermostat could shut it off early.

Actually you may need to adjust the Water Feeder unit the keep the water in a sweet zone. Or do it manually and use the Auto fill as a backup in case you forget.

Maybe your model.
https://www.sidharvey.com/documents/UNI-08244_Instal.pdf

bburd

You have a system balance problem, which is usually correctable by changing the rates at which the radiators are vented... unless that third-floor radiator is just undersized.

The first thing is to make sure you have adequate venting on the steam mains in the basement.

The next thing is to slow down the venting of the radiators in the areas that are near the thermostat or too warm, and/or speed up the venting in the colder rooms.

You might look into the book "We got steam heat! A guide to peaceful coexistence", available from the store on this site. Venting is also addressed in detail in  "the lost art of steam heating".

High quality, well-made vents are worth the price. You will not find them at your local big box store. Most of us here like Gorton, Maid-o'- Mist, Vent-Rite and Hoffman.

Kenny100

thank you!! i just wish the whole house could be held at a comfortable levels where i wont need to have windows open to sleep comfortably.

bburd said:

You have a system balance problem, which is usually correctable by changing the rates at which the radiators are vented... unless that third-floor radiator is just undersized.

The first thing is to make sure you have adequate venting on the steam mains in the basement.

The next thing is to slow down the venting of the radiators in the areas that are near the thermostat or too warm, and/or speed up the venting in the colder rooms.

You might look into the book "We got steam heat! A guide to peaceful coexistence", available from the store on this site. Venting is also addressed in detail in  "the lost art of steam heating".

High quality, well-made vents are worth the price. You will not find them at your local big box store. Most of us here like Gorton, Maid-o'- Mist, Vent-Rite and Hoffman.

pedmec

you do you need to change the orifice in the water supply line. It's not the correct orifice or it is getting plugged. the fill is a time sequence so it needs a bigger orifice to fill to the correct level.

KC_Jones

“ thank you!! i just wish the whole house could be held at a comfortable levels where i wont need to have windows open to sleep comfortably.”

@Kenny100 it can be. You have a balance issue which has nothing to do with the thermostat.

If this is a one pipe steam system, balance starts in the basement with main venting. What vents are currently on the mains? We would also need to know the length and pipe size of this mains. What vents do you currently have on the radiators? That would give us a baseline of what you have and maybe where you need to go.

Kenny100

KC_Jones said:

“ thank you!! i just wish the whole house could be held at a comfortable
levels where i wont need to have windows open to sleep comfortably.”

@Kenny100 it can be. You have a balance issue which has nothing to do with the thermostat.

If this is a one pipe steam system, balance starts in the basement with main venting. What vents are currently on the mains? We would also need to know the length and pipe size of this mains. What vents do you currently have on the radiators? That would give us a baseline of what you have and maybe where you need to go.

Replaced the third-floor radiators (only 2)with Gorton C 

Not sure what the second and first floors will need to be checked and I'm guessing this photo is the mains in the basement. 

KC_Jones

Ok, I'm going to speculate, based on that picture, the main venting is woefully inadequate.

Do you know how long the mains are? That would be from where the pipes that run around the basement, until the last radiator take off. I see 2 returns, 2 main vents, so I'm guessing 2 mains.

The idea of venting is to completely fill the main with steam first before any radiator sees steam, then use the radiator vents to get steam into them. Without being on site, and very roughly speaking, you'd have #4 vents on the first floor, #5 vents on the second, and #6 on the third. There will absolutely be variation on this depending on how long the runout is from the main, longer may need more venting. Also, if a room is relatively hot with similar venting to other rooms on a given floor, you'd want to slow that one down to lessen the heat. That said you need a starting point, and decide which vent brand and style you would go with. Some go with adjustable, some use a replaceable orifice style some used fixed sizes. Fixed sizes have the disadvantage of requiring a whole new vent when change is needed.

First this is getting the main venting up to snuff. I see a Gorton #1 and something else. Unless those mains are ridiculously short you may need a Gorton #2 on both, but we'd need those length measurements to confirm. Lengths can be to nearest foot, doesn't need to be super exacting.

Kenny100

KC_Jones said:

Ok, I'm going to speculate, based on that picture, the main venting is woefully inadequate. Do you know how long the mains are? That would be from where the pipes that run around the basement, until the last radiator take off. I see 2 returns, 2 main vents, so I'm guessing 2 mains. The idea of venting is to completely fill the main with steam first before any radiator sees steam, then use the radiator vents to get steam into them. Without being on site, and very roughly speaking, you'd have #4 vents on the first floor, #5 vents on the second, and #6 on the third. There will absolutely be variation on this depending on how long the runout is from the main, longer may need more venting. Also, if a room is relatively hot with similar venting to other rooms on a given floor, you'd want to slow that one down to lessen the heat. That said you need a starting point, and decide which vent brand and style you would go with. Some go with adjustable, some use a replaceable orifice style some used fixed sizes. Fixed sizes have the disadvantage of requiring a whole new vent when change is needed. First this is getting the main venting up to snuff. I see a Gorton #1 and something else. Unless those mains are ridiculously short you may need a Gorton #2 on both, but we'd need those length measurements to confirm. Lengths can be to nearest foot, doesn't need to be super exacting.

It's a Gorton 1 & a Hoffman 45 

From the vent to the last radiator is 42-45 feet 

Third floor radiators have Gorton C/D

Second floor has Maid O Mist 1

First floor has a mix of maid o Mist and Hoffman 40’s 
I have 1 radiator turned off in a bedroom because it's too hot. 

KC_Jones

42-45 feet for each main?

You need at least one Gorton #2 vent for each main.

That lack of main venting is definitely part of the problem.

Kenny100

KC_Jones said:

42-45 feet for each main?

You need at least one Gorton #2 vent for each main.

That lack of main venting is definitely part of the problem.

Sorry its 45 feet from the boiler to the furthest radiator.. Confused on the main question..

KC_Jones

In this picture I see what appears to be 2 returns, which implies 2 mains.