Steam Boiler blows controlers

james76

Jamie Hall said:

Cheers. On your installation there isn't one. Should be, to protect the pressuretrol, but... not there. Worse, I can't see a good way to get at the pipe... sigh.

And by the way -- that pressuretrol is set to high. Try reducing the setting on the front scale to just above the bottom 0.5 psi mark.

That is a few weeks old of a picture. the pressure has already been adjusted down. when the preassuretrol issue was handled i was unable to find the pigtail separate from the entire unit. Are those available à la carte?

james76

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@james76

Also, when trouble shooting a suspected bad neutral have someone put an amprobe on your grounding electrode conductor (GEC) (the wire (usually bare) that runs from your electric service to your water pipe and or ground rods or well casing etc.

A bad neutral will often cause current on the GEC. Turn on a bunch of loads in the house while testing to amplify this.

You will often get some small current on the GEC when everything is normal as well.

DawsonArnold said:

It could be an electrical issue, like voltage spikes, that's frying the controllers. Or maybe there's something else in the system that's putting too much stress on them. It's best to call in a pro who can take a close look at the whole setup, from your electrical connections to the boiler's internals. They should be able to track down the root of the problem. A boiler that keeps eating flame controllers isn’t something to take lightly, so get a skilled technician to check it out as soon as possible.

So, Boiler guy came, saw, serviced, and fixed the boiler.

Then, it fired another controller overnight. Feeling the burn of the $700 service call.

I'm attacking the electrical issue as best I can manage today. So, "EBEBRATT-Ed" are you saying in testing inside the panel? Utility is closed on weekends but I'll be having them look at the meter. Electrician is being searched for now.

james76

So. This happened

neilc

is that melted ?
the mount screw melted off?
broke off?
post a picture of the mount screw at the boiler?

and for giggles
and carefully,
grab your meter,
go to an outlet,
measure voltage across the hot and neutral slots, what is it?
now measure hot to the ground, what is it?
also measure neutral to ground, what is it?
do this is a couple locations, near the boiler, and up in the kitchen, and where the tv is plugged in

109A_5

Hello @james76,

Looks like a severe external heat source. Do you have a flame Roll Out issue ? Did the other units melt too ? Did your Boiler Tech miss this ?

109A_5

Hello @james76, Need a picture from further back of the whole side of the boiler where that ignition module mounts.

james76

The unit was placed on a shelf, the length of the gas valve wires away and to the side of the boiler. And under a bucket. The idea was to excude and leaks, moisture, or heat from killing the controller. The shelf was not melted. Nor was the bucket. That controller was installed yesterday.

james76

I'm having trouble understanding how that much energy can be inside the controller. How that much can come through the transformer.

There is now way that unit got that much heat externally and not damage the shelf or the bucket.

So wear the heck did the heat come from?

When I approached it this morning the 6 blink error was flashing.

109A_5

Hello @james76,

WoW, OK. If you are not experiencing Voltage offset issues as described earlier in the post (house loads set like when this happened). I would have to say the Gas valve is overloading the ignition module and or the Gas valve coil has an electrical leakage path to ground or an intermittent overload internal to the gas valve that is overloading the ignition module. It may only happen when the Gas Valve coil warms up.

Any crushed or compromised wires going to the Gas valve ?

Were those wire connectors discolored before ?

109A_5

Hello @james76,

james76 said:

Steam boiler is tired, I'm tired
Single pipe sears/Dunkirk boiler. 2 wire thermostat. New last year honeywell gas valve. Rebuilt McConnell water feeder. McConnell low water cut off. Using the Honeywell s8600 series universal flame controler. Thought a broken sight glass with leak was the issue. Not the issue. Blew my 5th controler in two winters overnight. Any thoughts or suggestions?

Was this ignition module meltdown situation going on before the gas valve was changed ?

109A_5

Hello @james76,

Another possibility is the normal isolation that the 120 VAC to 24 VAC transformer provides has been compromised. So there is parasitic current from the 120 VAC side (primary side) on the 24 VAC (secondary side) of the transformer. Since the Boiler should be grounded and the Water and possibly Gas piping are normally grounded and the ignition module is also usually ground bonded for the flame sense functionality an electrical leakage path through the transformer may put current through the 24 VAC system that should not be there. May only happen when the transformer warms up with normal load.

The 24 VAC (secondary side) of the transformer may still read normal 24 VAC if just that is being tested.

neilc

you need a HVAC tech / Electrician,

109A_5

Hello @james76,
Maybe totally unrelated, but it still bothers me that this transformer looks like it has been running very warm for a while.

james76

109A_5 said:

Hello @james76,

Another possibility is the normal isolation that the 120 VAC to 24 VAC transformer provides has been compromised. So there is parasitic current from the 120 VAC side (primary side) on the 24 VAC (secondary side) of the transformer. Since the Boiler should be grounded and the Water and possibly Gas piping are normally grounded and the ignition module is also usually ground bonded for the flame sense functionality an electrical leakage path through the transformer may put current through the 24 VAC system that should not be there. May only happen when the transformer warms up with normal load.

The 24 VAC (secondary side) of the transformer may still read normal 24 VAC if just that is being tested.

How does one test for this?

james76

109A_5 said:

Hello @james76,

WoW, OK. If you are not experiencing Voltage offset issues as described earlier in the post (house loads set like when this happened). I would have to say the Gas valve is overloading the ignition module and or the Gas valve coil has an electrical leakage path to ground or an intermittent overload internal to the gas valve that is overloading the ignition module. It may only happen when the Gas Valve coil warms up.

Any crushed or compromised wires going to the Gas valve ?

Were those wire connectors discolored before ?

Gas valve is one season old. Frankly, I think he used a savaged controller. The shelf we placed the unit on is Cheaper than Walmart plastic. And we placed a resin mixing bucket over it. all to isolate from and heat or moisture. The s8600 unit is what, ABS? Melted on the 24vac side? Not up by the Spark. Nothing on the end should have enough current to cause that.

I'll post pictures later.

james76

109A_5 said:

Hello @james76,
Maybe totally unrelated, but it still bothers me that this transformer looks like it has been running very warm for a while.

How much Current is this guy creating in normal operation?

If I'm getting high voltage spikes from supply, would that contribute to the heat we see?

james76

neilc said:

you need a HVAC tech / Electrician,

Yes. The irony here is that the tech that came out service the unit in the exact same manner that I do. Same cleanings, same testing. Beyond conflating the issue with using what I believe to be a used controller she started right up after.

james76

james76 said:

So. This happened

I found a plug that shows 1.5 volts across the ground to neutral. Its an original outlet. So far any new ( my remodels and additions) have not shown any neutral-ground current I have a consistent 119-120 volts everywhere until i turn on the hot water. Consistent 5 volt drop.

109A_5

Hello @james76,
Did all your ignition modules suffer the same fate, a meltdown ? Or did some just stop working ? Dissecting a failed one, you may be able to discern the path that generated all the heat and then look back into the system with that information.
I'm starting to move away from the compromised neutral from the utility theory a bit. Since you are aware of it and apparently have not noticed any other violent Voltage excursions. "I found a plug that shows 1.5 volts across the ground to neutral." although odd unless that branch circuit was loaded. Neutral voltage drop back to the circuit breaker panel and no voltage drop on the ground wire.
Could there be two transformers in the system not phased correctly with the result of 48 Volts in some places of the system ?
Also, possibly, it seems obvious you are not catching it in the act, so I'm thinking the culprit possibly has to heat soak (system use) for a while before it causes problems.

LWCO transformer; usually (not always) things are designed to not run so hot that is causes damage. Darkening of electrical/ electronic components and/or circuit boards usually means excessive heat for some reason. My guess is for the proper operation of the LWCO it needs the isolation that a transformer provides so in this case it may be a 24 VAC to about 6 VAC to run the electronics. With a 120 VAC LWCO they would just put a different transformer with a 120 VAC primary in that spot.

Do you have a good chronological order of what failed and what failed first with all these issues ? I'm wondering what changed to start this whole thing.

neilc

wait,
steam boiler?
or,
Water Heater ?
can we look at the water heater ?

109A_5

Hello @james76,
If the hot water heater is a 240 VAC device that will not try to offset the neutral back to the utility's transformer. You are probably just seeing the sum total of the Voltage drop in one of the hot leads with the larger load.

109A_5

Hello @james76,
Since you have replaced a bunch of stuff and don't find issues with the building's power and the problem still exists. A transformer with excessive Primary to Secondary electrical leakage current is very unlikely and very rare situation, but...

Transformers normally have a certain amount Primary to Secondary electrical leakage current. They are an AC device and the Primary and Secondary coils are in close proximity to each other, so there is a certain amount of Capacitive Reactance between the coils allowing a small bit of leakage current. This small bit of leakage current is usually not a problem. If the transformer has a defect the leakage current could be higher. Since one side of the boiler's 24 VAC system is usually grounded and if the transformer has issues I could see it causing bizarre problems.

There is specialized test equipment to do Hi-Pot (High-Potential) testing, which I assume you don't have. So I would measure the VAC from ground to the secondary of the transformer with it disconnected from all the boiler's 24 VAC loads. I would expect Voltages on either Secondary terminal to be under 40 VAC and not the same and probably not with 24 VAC difference. If you can I would then load the transformer to its VA capacity for a while to warm it up and repeat the test with no load.

If the Voltage is over 90 VAC and each terminal has a difference close to equal to the Secondary's Voltage I would replace the transformer.

Or if it is easier just substitute or replace the transformer.

james76

Well All, I'm done. The day the tech was here I found a Dunkirk which happens to be the much younger brother of my tired and broke boiler. Finished the install yesterday. In shake down now.

the last thing to handle is figuring out how to connect this ICM492 correctly.

Thank you all for your help and advice. You people are all boiler poets!

Please feel free to critic my install so long as you know that the clean up and tighten up is still in the works...

james76

oups...

...

KC_Jones

Are you seriously asking for use to critique that? I'm having trouble finding anything that is correct there, not kidding either.

ethicalpaul

It’s not too late to open or download the installation manual which will show a good diagram for how to do the near-boiler-piping…especially crucial in a Dunkirk

james76

ethicalpaul said:

It’s not too late to open or download the installation manual which will show a good diagram for how to do the near-boiler-piping…especially crucial in a Dunkirk

Did that. The lay out does not deviate much and only when the age and condition of existing required it to remain.

So please, tell me what you see? Frankly I can't afford another bill approaching a $1000 just for the third less than amazing Boiler tech in as many years to not fix anything.

james76

List of clean up/tidy up...
Boiler Cover install.
Install fresh panel ground and rod.
Replace thermostat control wire.
Move gas supply closer vertically to gas valve.
Chase thermostat wire with gas feed.
Install flush ball valve at the bottom of Hartford loop (hidden on the left of the pic)
Install Valve on wet return.
Air gap drains for water feed drain, Safety valve, Boiler drain, and future Flush valve
Finish ICM492 setup and configuration

Beyond those, I'm at a loose end...

109A_5

Hello @james76,
I wish you all the luck in the world, however, if the old boiler's electrical woes were caused something external to the boiler it will probably happen to this boiler too.

I see 8 sections in the new boiler.



Not sure of your model but the Near Boiler Piping is fairly typical.
https://dunkirk.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/615000243-REV-A-PSB-NEAR-BOILER-PIPING.pdf

james76

Oh and the electrician found this...

That is suppose to be my ground wire.

Every connection needed tightening...

109A_5

Hello @james76,
Did you have the ICM492 on the old boiler ? Maybe it will shed some light on the situation.

KC_Jones

That size boiler, by the manual, which is the absolute minimum spec, is required to use both outlets, yours is only connected to one. That’s a major deviation from the manual. You also do not have a header, another major deviation.

If this is work you hired someone to do, absolutely do not pay them. The piping I see is a recipe for an absolute nightmare of a system. 

james76

109A_5 said:

Hello @james76,
Did you have the ICM492 on the old boiler ? Maybe it will shed some light on the situation.

Nope, it arrived just in time to add it to the new boiler.

james76

KC_Jones said:

That size boiler, by the manual, which is the absolute minimum spec, is required to use both outlets, yours is only connected to one. That’s a major deviation from the manual. You also do not have a header, another major deviation.

If this is work you hired someone to do, absolutely do not pay them. The piping I see is a recipe for an absolute nightmare of a system. 

Everything below the headers and the 4" tee is new. I did not touch the header. Replacing all the exiting piping down there is not, in any way, a viable option. There are two mains above the 4" tee.

Lucky my wife already paid me. I installed it. It took two days and I manged to acquire an appliance dolly, a cable winch, and a 36" pipe wrench out of the deal.

Explain to me the importance of adding a second supply tapping? Not just because is says in the manual. All science and stuff please...

james76

james76 said:

109A_5 said:

Hello @james76,
Did you have the ICM492 on the old boiler ? Maybe it will shed some light on the situation.

Nope, it arrived just in time to add it to the new boiler.

Further, any thoughts on why I can't get the 492 to pass voltage? L1 is Hot, L2 is neutral. Reads 120 volts. no control leads attached or enabled in settings. Set at 3 minute short cycle delay. 5% over under voltage. And a .01 sec response time. No voltage detected at the NO and COM leads.

109A_5

Hello @james76,
Is the ICM492 wired up correctly? It is just a Voltage monitor that controls an internal 10 Amp relay. I probably would use Figure 2 to wire it. The motor in figure 2 represents all the 120 VAC boiler loads.
BTW that meter socket is a mess, the installer should be braiding hair not wires.

ChrisJ

james76 said:

That size boiler, by the manual, which is the absolute minimum spec, is required to use both outlets, yours is only connected to one. That’s a major deviation from the manual. You also do not have a header, another major deviation.

If this is work you hired someone to do, absolutely do not pay them. The piping I see is a recipe for an absolute nightmare of a system. 

Everything below the headers and the 4" tee is new. I did not touch the header. Replacing all the exiting piping down there is not, in any way, a viable option. There are two mains above the 4" tee. Lucky my wife already paid me. I installed it. It took two days and I manged to acquire an appliance dolly, a cable winch, and a 36" pipe wrench out of the deal. Explain to me the importance of adding a second supply tapping? Not just because is says in the manual. All science and stuff please...

Because your boiler is going to spend all it's time blowing water up into the steam main and shutting down on low water until the water comes back.

This is because the velocity out of the block is too high and going to drag water with it.

One of the header's jobs is to help remove what water does get out and you don't have that either.  

KC_Jones

To make sure the communication is very clear, you have no header. The tee you keep referring to would be located in the red circled area on the piping schematic from the boiler manual that I marked up.

In addition the mains are supposed to come into the header individually as shown in the manual, so the tee really needs to go.

I hate to ask this, but how did you size the replacement? That’s a huge boiler and I fear may be oversized further compounding all the issues we are discussing.

I get it, @ChrisJ, @ethicalpaul, and myself are homeowners like you who got frustrated with local contractors and also installed our own boilers. That said, short cutting a steam boiler install is a recipe for major disappointment. As a homeowner with budgets and such, I don’t take recommending spending money lightly, but you really need to consider looking at this again and figuring out how to get it done properly.

ChrisJ

Actually,

@KC_Jones Is the cheapest person I know.